[FONT=Courier]The quote below is from R.D. Liang's book "The Politics of Experience." If there is validity in his opinion does anyone here have a good solution for eliminating the conditioning from a less than adequate rearing which causes states of confusion and conflict. Some may wish to go beyond what was put into their heads without their permission or understanding? Meditation? Believe nothing. Don't believe your thoughts.

Quote: The Mystification of Experience

It is not enough to destroy one's own and other people's experience. One must overlay this devastation by a false consciousness inured, as Marcuse puts it, to its own falsity.

Exploitation must not be seen as such. It must be seen as benevolence. Persecution preferably should not need to be invalidated as the figment of a paranoid imagination; it should be experienced as kindness. Marx described mystification and showed its function in his day. Orwell's time is already with us. We in Europe and North America are the colonists, and in order to sustain our amazing images of ourselves as God's gift to the vast majority of the starving human species, we have to interiorize our violence upon ourselves and our children and to employ the rhetoric of morality to describe this process.

In order to rationalize our industrial-military complex, we have to destroy our capacity to see clearly any more what is in front of, and to imagine what is beyond, our noses. Long before a thermonuclear war can come about, we have had to lay waste to our own sanity. We begin with the children. It is imperative to catch them in time. Without the most thorough and rapid brainwashing their minds would see through our dirty tricks. Children are not yet fools, but we shall turn them into imbeciles like ourselves, with high I.Q.'s, if possible.

From the moment of birth, when the Stone Age baby confronts the twentieth-century mother, the baby is subjected to those forces of violence, called love, as its mother and father, and their parents and their parents before them, have been. These forces are mainly concerned with destroying most of its potentialities, and on the whole this enterprise is successful. By the time the new human being is fifteen or so, we are left with a being like ourselves, a half-crazed creature more or less adjusted to a mad world. This is normality in our present age.

Love and violence, properly speaking, are polar opposites. Love lets the other be, but with affection and concern. Violence attempts to constrain the other's freedom, to force him to act in the way we desire, but with ultimate lack of concern, with indifference to the other's own existence or destiny.

We are effectively destroying ourselves by violence masquerading as love." End quote.

[FONT=Times]Is this a valid view to anyone here? If what Liang says is true does Theosophy speak of what takes place the first few years of life? What is education? Liang seems to have gotten what is happening on this side of the pond right on. michael

It makes much sense from one viewpoint. However, from another, violence is any use of force, including activities such as chopping wood. I usually consider love and fear to be opposites.

I've seen mention made to three forms of love. Filial, romantic or eros, and agape. The third being impersonal love. I still have a problem with the word impersonal, although I know better, I still have the image of the word indifference when impersonal is used. I would like to imagine impersonal as helping another being exactly as I would help myself.

I see a problem in the primary theme of the above article. What we really have is the essence of the infant over-ridden by developed personality. This is accomplished as early as 3 - 5 years of age. It is what the child copies from observing the behavior of others. It is from the emotional retinue developed in the same manner. It is from learning and education. We learn to be hypocrites without being aware of it. We learn to hide from ourselves our contradictory natures. It's not a massive conspiracy, in my opinion, lacking evidence sufficient to claim that it is. I suppose there already exist enough people to claim conspiracy and make accusation, with little concern toward possession of supporting evidence.

Our current civilization is very complex as this is the information age I've heard people claim. Information creates personalities, many skewed, unbalanced, and many simply avoiding information, although, I don't see how that is possible. Even cartoons and video-games deliver information. What we do with information can possibly have the reverse effect of creating enslavement to substance.

We don't need an anti Christ or Devil. Each and everone of us are quite capable of being one.

mensagitat,

I am presently studying to become a marriage counselor. My studies in the area have been fascinating. Let me share one idea I came across.

One question every prospective groom should ask himself about his bride-to-be is, "Would I still love her if she became fat and ugly?" I thought back on all the girlfriends and 'female friends' that I have had, and asked myself that question about each one of them. Sadly, there was only one of them that I could answer yes to. The ability to answer yes to this question is an indication of agape or 'impersonal' love.

I am not sure what you mean by "the essence of the infant over-ridden by developed personality." I'll have to take a closer look at what was in the article.

David C,

Chopping wood is not violent for me, or any child. It is tough for the wood and the one chopping it down. There are much more subtle violences, such as an angry look or word to a child, telling children they are something they are not just to satisfy a broken parents ego, saying to a child "if you loved me you would......., or turn them into an american or "willing" particpant of any other belief system. The eye, the tongue, the body language, the imposing of the authority of the family without any understanding that the parents job is to create the atmosphere, the safe and loving space with understanding, where that child can blossom into whatever aspect of "self" the DNA holds for that unique person. Anything could be seen as violent, but me thinks Liang was not referencing chopping wood. Love and fear are different. I see lots of children that are afraid of their parents.

Michael,

I agree. I have come to the conclusion that children who are emotionally ignored, or worse yet treated harshly, will grow up to be unhappy, even when they have not technically been 'abused.' In my humble opinion, this is the biggest cause of unhappiness, and also the biggest cause of divorce in the world today.

Nick the Pilot, said:

One question every prospective groom should ask himself about his bride-to-be is, "Would I still love her if she became fat and ugly?" I thought back on all the girlfriends and 'female friends' that I have had, and asked myself that question about each one of them. Sadly, there was only one of them that I could answer yes to. The ability to answer yes to this question is an indication of agape or 'impersonal' love.
~~~~~~

mensagitat:

I suppose that could be agape, but it really seems similar characteristics and attributes are naturally being drawn together. Outer appearance diminishes a bit as a factor. I suppose I shouldn't be stuck on the word 'impersonal' as I have lately read that Atman is described as impersonal simply because personal denotes limit. I suppose we can strive for mild emotions while limiting passions.

michael744, I was using some stuff from Gurjieff and I know at least one Theosophist that does not appreciate it when I do that. You would see strong evidence of essence in a people who live close to nature and struggle for survival, is an almost daily experience. They attain a higher essence than a highly civilized culture, but lack the information of the latter. It is a bit of a paradox; we have less essence, while at the same time possessing that which might enable our Essence to express through our physical body.

Returning to the theme of the initial post, it is unfair to condemn parents. Is there some kind of school young adults get to participate in, before becoming parents? I suppose there is, but there is no mandate. As soon as I think of suggesting such a national mandate, I imagine people saying, "I don't need a blankety blank government telling me how I should raise children." It should be a government mandate without government faculty.

There is one more note to make: Perhaps we should look at the histories of every other nation of the globe and extol their perfect goodness.

This nation can only improve, not waste time whipping itself. I've seen so much evidence of food hoarding in nations where we try to help. On top of that, if we insure an equitable distribution of food, then we are accused of occupying the country.

"When you give something to a man, or do something for him, the first time he will kiss your hands, the second time he takes his hat off, third time he bows, fourth time he fawns, fifth time he nods, sixth time he insults you, and the seventh time he sues you for not giving him enough."

I promise, no more Gurjieff quotes. This will be the last... for awhile.

Somewhere I read that incarnating at this very complex and material period could only mean that very high level entities would do it. Something about transmuting the energies of lost souls, or upon failure causing their complete dissolution. New Agy stuff, but interesting. I put little weight to it, they sound like pretty words.

mensagitat,

There is no lack of appreiation in me about your comments, my life is appreciation for being able to participate in it, and that includes all the comments, opinions and other movement in relationship life affords all of us.

I am in no way condeming anyone, especially parents. I just am stating what I see as the state of much of the parenting in this world. Some have lives so difficult being a parent is not possible. For me, the most creative thing in the world is to be an effective parent. By effective I mean the the parent has the skills to foster in their child an attitude that gives them the best possible tools to become who they are, not who they are told they are and will have the ability to give attention, have understanding and through that awareness. Accentuate the positive, eliminate the violence or even the undercurrent of it.

What we call education seems to me to be the accumulation of knowledge. Knowledge is conclusion: "I think this because of this or that" and about comes conclusion. Conclusion means, closed, one thinks one knows the answer. Many never revisit their conclusions. Krishnamurti spoke of all this at length. The worst of the (spiritual and psyche) damage I see done to children is done by the age of 5 years old. Can you tell me that if a child is born into a family with rascist beliefs those beliefs will not affect the child? Is rascism as genetic thing? No way. I have watched children be turned into rascist thinkers because they live in that ethos. Poeple often reflect the attitudes of those they live with, especially if they are young children. Call them (parents?) developed personalities if you wish but an adult filling a childs mind full of concepts and ideas it does not have to capacity to reject will affect the child. Massive conspiracy? Looks to me in the spiritual world, the world of the psyche good things are happening but at a snails pace. If we as a species survive long enough this conversation will not be necessary. Government mandate? How about attempting to put the welfare of the child first, before any personal desire/need/vanity/instant gratification of the parent is considered? If child is marginalized, is beaten, is abused in any way because of the ignorance of the parent, or whatever reason (usually the same reason that Liang states)it still causes difficulties, big ones, for those children. What we call our educational system is what Krishnamurti calls the accumlation of knowledge. It is great for our technological selves but is much less effective because of the defenses created by children who do not understand the violence just under the surface of much or our so-called love, or the actual violence as in "WHACK, I am doing this for your own good." That is authority and force, not love, or if that is love it is of a type that i am unfamiliar. Since you mentioned it, a school or a test to see if one has the capacity to function as a parent might be a good idea. After all, we need a license to drive, to fly and the like. Will the driver or pilot who has been afforded the better instruction be better for having the good fortune to have an understanding teacher, or does it make no difference? Your comment about essense is interesting. Have you live abroad? Throw in a different culture and you will see the same damage to children even if the parents live close to nature and are dirt eating poor. Go live in Thailand, where the interaction between people is soft and non-confrontational. The farther north you go the people are poorer, and live in an almost state of nature. They are friendly and warm human beings. And an amazing %'s of these poor people are alcoholics. They also sell their 12 year old daughters into prostitution for $100 or a new TV. Something amiss in that kind of parenting, where ever one goes. Garbage in, garbage out, no?. Understanding, attention and living by setting the most compassionate example possible is a positive, no? I do not believe this nor do I think anything i say is set in stone. It is just what I see in the world. Lots of violence, of any kind, early does not help any young child. Just an opinion, nothing more or less.

Hello michael744

If a person possesses racism to a degree, yet would still hire the person he directs this racism at, and as well even become friends with same, that is one thing. If a person expresses racism and injures or even kills the people this racism is directed to, then I would submit that this person would find some other motivation to injure or kill, if racism did not exist.

If I blamed other people for my state or condition, I probably would not make efforts to improve, after all, it is everyone else's fault. I would not make of myself, human capital, a person whose know-how is something an employer is happy to pay for.

A parent should not teach a child what that parent is not practicing him/herself. A good example is the most important thing.

It is good to help others but a person really should not involve theirselves too deeply in their karma. I don't know why so many people in nations around the globe have more children than they can provide for. It looks like rich nations have to attempt caring for them. And then are the targets of these same young people.

... Many are here to experience passions and sufferings ...

Its a furnace forging them into eventual god status.

mensagitat:

I see agape love as totally selfless love. In Buddhism it is called compassion. I think of the wife who must nurse her sick husband back to health, all the while listening to him whine and complain. She hates doing it. And, she is more than will to do it for him, because of her selfless love for him. To me, that is selfless love, or compassion.

"I suppose I shouldn't be stuck on the word 'impersonal' as I have lately read that Atman is described as impersonal simply because personal denotes limit."

--> I think that is a good definition of impersonal.

"I suppose we can strive for mild emotions while limiting passions."

--> As a matter of fact, I have spent a lot of time recently deciding when emotions and passions are good, and when they are bad. I now firmly believe that we must first become aware of all the emotions and passions we have inside us. Then, we can start doing something about them. I think the biggest problem with emotions and passions is that people suppress them without acknowledging them, causing such emotions and passions to fester and cause us all kinds of problems.

"Is there some kind of school young adults get to participate in, before becoming parents?"

--> No, there is not! As a matter of fact, I have been toying with the idea of writing such a book.

"...I imagine people saying, 'I don't need a blankety blank government telling me how I should raise children.' It should be a government mandate without government faculty."

--> We only need to make the information available. There is no need to mandate it.

"...incarnating at this very complex and material period could only mean that very high level entities would do it."

--> On the contrary, I see a lot of immature people incarnating here on Earth. Everyone, immature people as well as very mature people, benefit a great deal from incarnating.

Michael,

You said,

“Some have lives so difficult being a parent is not possible. For me, the most creative thing in the world is to be an effective parent.”

--> As a matter of fact, I was just reading this article about parents who emotionally abuse their children so badly that those children end up with Antisocial Personality Disorder:

“…many adults with antisocial personality disorder grew up in chaotic homes with constant family conflict or a lack of supervision. The parents may have been abusive alcoholics or drug addicts, and as a result the children may have difficulty developing emotional bonds. They have few healthy role models for behavior, and there are no rewards for socially acceptable actions. They may come to see the world as dangerous and unpredictable, and lash out as a result.”
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antisocia...DSECTION=causes

“…I just am stating what I see as the state of much of the parenting in this world.”

--> I think the lack of parenting is destroying our culture.

“What we call our educational system is what Krishnamurti calls the accumulation of knowledge.”

--> I am reminded of a story of an elementary school student. The student had a horrible body order. It got so bad that the teacher finally had to do something about it. The teacher sent a note home to the parent. The parent came back and said, “Don’t smell my kid, just teach him.” Teacher are not allowed to teach morals any more, just letters and numbers.

"WHACK, I am doing this for your own good."

--> I was recently tutoring a young child. The child kept getting unruly. I finally started yelling at her when she started throwing pens and pencils. I am against violence, but I am also for discipline. The trick is to see good discipline vs. bad discipline.

mensagitat,

Nobody is blaming anyone for anything. The Net Of Indra at work. If you read my post you will, I think, see that what I am saying is that those who have the good fortune to be parented by a family that understands the process of life and how to impart, whether through example or teaching, a life affirmitive, postive in every way, loving attitude has a better chance at living an affirmitive, compassionate life than one who was required, by the mere fact of being an innocent young child dependant on the adults in his/her life to live a hellish life of violence and dsyfunctional views concerning relationship, society.....just about anything I can think of will be affected.

I really don't understand your analogy about racism. Lots of qualifications in your example. The expression of racism. That can be done verbally. Racism in my youth was, as I recall, prominent and violent. Lots of lynchings, just for looking at a woman of another color. It is much better now, but sophisticated and anywhere from killing to very subtle. Why would anyone want to hold a racist thought in their minds? What good will come of that for the individual and society? A person who holds rascist thoughts towards their "friend" does not understand what friendship really is, as if he were a true friend there would not be rascist undertones in the relationship....kind of the way I see it.

If everyone has the capacity to align themselves from within, by themselves, why is the world involved in all the violence? Sure, humans are capable of anything, from the most viscious violence to a life of compassion. Put those good examples, those good words, no violence (though I do agree with Nick discipline is required, but discipline is not violence. If it is, it is not discipline. It is violence) and a lot of love and understanding and people would have less to overcome, drop or whatever word one wishes to use.

It seems this thread has been about psychic abuse. I wrote down the following from the Secret Doctrine. This book is what, about a hundred years old? what I write below, still appears pertinent:

"In sober truth, vice and wickedness are an abnormal, unnatural manifestation, at this period of our human evolution--at least they ought to be so. The fact that mankind was never more selfish and vicious than it is now, civilized nations having succeeded in making of the first an ethical characteristic, of the second an art, is an additional proof of the exceptional nature of the phenomenon."

I would suppose the correction to be 'Will' which understands operating within and with Nature, in harmony and accord. We have relative-will in that we are for the most part, in a state or condition of imperfection (evil). It is why we seem to be constrained by so many laws. Man-made and Natural. What Laws does Atman have as constraints? I would only be able to think of one. We evolve our mind of desire, hopefully.

In agrarian society people experienced more completely, slow emotions. They didn't cry, "I'm bored" or need to be constantly entertained. They could simply live in the now. Industrial society and the information age is like fast-forward. This certainly seems to be a test to our sanity. I believe good ethics will displace power soon. Also, we will have to somehow expand our consciousnesses. The brain can only deal with 24 images per second, which is not really adequate in my opinion. So taking actions based on intuition emanating from a good person is where we probably need to be heading. We need to evolve in that direction.

When it is required to take action without having the luxury of time to think on it, a good person is the type of person we want to be.

I could not agree more, " a good person is the type we want to be." Absolutely. Good defined in the way you mean good, not in the way some "goodness" is expressed and defined, say in other cultural belief systems.

What your book writes is still pertinant today, and that was written over 100 years ago. Still a way to go. And I lke the being "bored" aspect, needing constant entertainment. Just as an observation, I have had children, I have spoken with many children, some who are adult in age and I have found that what we call "boredom" is in fact a lack of mindfulness, as you say, actually living in the now.

A point I like to believe is that quality is much more effective than quantity. The core members of this forum do not use G. de Purucker's 'Lokas and talas' as a chart for laying out the gradients of man and spheres.

I should expand on the first sentence of the above pointing out that I believe that when everywhere around us there seems to be selfishness and viciousness, that even the existence of some good in the world provides enduring light. The second wasn't very relavent since I decided not to go very far on the subject of Loka's and talas. It's easy to relate to magnetism and magnetic fields as illustrations.

If I were to utilize a cylindrical magnetic rod and describe the magnetic field that runs through it, and the striations of these lines of force, the part of the magnetic field which is just under the exterior surface, would also be closest on the outside of the surface. So, the lines of force which are innermost, would, on the outside, be the furthest from the exterior surface.

I have to leave utilizing Loka's and talas as I do not have the knowledge to go further with my point using them as a reference. What is just under the surface of a man is what also surrounds this globe. Astral light. The evil genius within each of us interested in the sensualities. Selfishly. The innermost part of us is also extremely distant from our exterior physical form.

The mirror of the soul cannot reflect both earth and heaven; and the one vanishes from its surface, as the other is glassed upon its deep. -- Zanoni.

Whenever I see mention made of the portion of the man which is just below the surface, the goal seems to be dissolution of it. So, I would suppose that a man not ready for that specific endeavor, should at least keep the word inordinate in mind. If I don't expect to achieve a quickening of evolution, I should at least try to maintain the Middle Pillar of mildness.

mensagitat,

You said,

"Whenever I see mention made of the portion of the man which is just below the surface, the goal seems to be dissolution of it."

--> I think there are two kinds of 'things' just below our surface; our lower principles, and our higher principles. I think our goal is to dissolve our lower principles, that is true. However, our goal is to coax our higher principles into more activity, not to dissolve them.

I made a distinction between innermost and that which is shallow, or just below the surface. The latter being Bhuvar-Loka and the former Satya-Loka. I will not go into talas which simply refer to materiality, but I will acknowledge your point that we don't really require a direct connection with our innermost Heart of Being to have quality, and yet, we do have aspects of ourselves which possess an inordinate attraction or connection to matter. It is something I've noticed in that we have selfish passions that cause us suffering, and yet, we will not release them. A person will experience anger, anxiety, or sadness over something said by another, and even hold onto this experience for hours, even days. This can be seen as selfishness. Can you explain to me why this can be seen as selfishness? holding onto a painful emotion?

I'm thinking that what is just under the surface is the Astral Light. I suppose that seeing it isolated as such would be disregarding the description of interpermiation.

In what manner I might go further in regard to the two sentences above, has become vague.

mensagitat,

Would not holding onto a painful emotion be selfish in the same way holding on to a painful thought? They both require that one focus on ones self to keep that pain in the moment.

Yes, and some might even describe this as necessary energy build-up toward responding to some perceived threat or injustice. I think it is simply perpetuating or increasing discord, dissonance, perturbations. I have heard a statement that an evil man is required to deal with an immense evil.

I like the view that solutions be sought that even benefit our enemies. If we have over-run this Earth, then She will simply shrug us off her back. So we should never diminutize the importance of every human individual.