John DeSantis has put together a series of 14 articles on reincarnation:

http://www.blavatsky.net/magazine/theosophy/ww/setting.html

Links to the reincarnation articles are listed as links 34-47 on that page.

I have not taken a look at the articles, but they look like they may be interesting. If anyone looks at the articles, I would be interested in hearing their reactions.

I read XI The Animal Question.

It said only the physical part below our self conscious can become involved in life as an animal. Whatever our level of self centeredness (selfishness) is, high degree or lower, does have an effect on the quality of the animal. It also mentions something along the lines of our 'remembering' our lower parts when we reincarnate. One might say, how? we choose a Mother who creates the fetus. The Mathematics of Breathing http://www.helium.com/tm/292115/while-resting-breath-every might give some light. I think it also refers to the perfection of the forty-nine fires, or maybe I infer falsely.

The statement of a human coming back as an animal refers to lack of conscience. I take that to include lack of empathy, compassion and sympathy for all life. It is still a human, even an educated one. I only see the human reincarnating Ego, regressing evolutionarily as something that many lifetimes in avichi could possibly cause to occur. Even then, I would like to think that the harshness of seemingly endless rebirths without the respite between death and rebirth, as creating the circumstances for noble impulses to arise in the human.

mensagitat,

Did it say that humans can be reborn as animals?

Actually, what I inferred from reading the article suggests that the reincarnating Ego does not come back as an animal. I, personally indicated my thoughts on how a human Ego might actually come back into the animal existence. As the result of many lives without the Devachanic bliss inbetween death and rebirth. The article suggested that only our lower principles (the four flames) might be incorporated into the animal. That, if it is suggested that a human came back as an animal, it is only giving referrence to a human who is basically a psychopath. You have many levels of psychopaths, in degree of intellect, for instance, you have those who will break the law in order to torture others, and at the other extreme, the smarter ones, they actually use the laws of man to torture others.

It is evolution in reverse to say a human will come back as an animal. I've read interesting topics concerning Elementals and Gods where statements are made that an Elemental can be as powerful as a God but is likened to a child not yet a mature adult. Compulsory and coercion are linked to power and immaturity. Cooperation and accord is power and maturity. I want to keep on blathering away, but will resist the temptation, for now.

mensagitat,

So it is saying that humans come back as humans, except in certain 'weird' exceptions. That sounds like a Theosophical idea, and it works for me.

"It is evolution in reverse to say a human will come back as an animal."

--> That is a very good way to put it.

The true teaching is that although these principles descend at death into lower kingdoms for life after life, if they are improved by the man's manner of living, and not degraded, they will gradually be stabilized at the level of human consciousness.

When his material or lower vehicles are wholly "humanized," the man is no longer like the rest of us, half animal and half divine; but wholly divine; a savior and teacher of man, whose memories remain unbroken by death because none of his principles of consciousness become obscured by periodic descent into lower forms; they have become too purified for that.
~~

Still on the same article, although I've read IV thru XII so far, the above quote reminded me of Egyptian Mummy. Keeping the deceased physical body preserved seems an attempt to have the lower four principles (the four flames) directed away from being drawn to the animal existence. So when the reincarnating Ego begins another rebirth, during its life these same lower prinicples return without the effects of living an animal existence, one or several times while the higher principle was away in Devachan. I think that each jiva, which was part of our lower principles are remembered and drawn back to the reincarnating Ego. I think the main intent is to quicken the ability to have reminiscences of past lives. It has the slight flavor of selfishness however. Also, it creates speculation; what if some ancient Pharaoh is currently existing, but his mummy is still doing its intended purpose by keeping the lower principles near it? would the draw of the Ego overpower the mummified body, or the reverse apply?

My above speculations remind me of the following: "If not to some peculiar end assign'd, study's the specious trifling of the mind." -- Young. :unsure:

mensagitat,

You said,

"Keeping the deceased physical body preserved seems an attempt to have the lower four principles (the four flames) directed away from being drawn to the animal existence...."

--> I want to make sure that you and I have the same idea. It is said the four lower principles are released and disintegrate after death. For example, the astral body is released after death, and the astral atoms it was composed of are scattered here and there. At the beginning of the next incarnation, a whole new set of astral atoms is assembled for a brand new astral body — but that astral body is assembled in strict accord with the astral body that the new baby will need.

Then what is the 'point' of the words in italics I pasted above?

What you are saying is these lower aspects, or four flames of a particular reincarnating Ego do not return to the Ego when he comes back to a physical existence? Let us say that you personally were of such a high level of consciousness with many divisions of perception, and of a level of relative perfection in regard to living within and with Nature, that a great deal of infuence was imbedded onto your lower principles as well, over a lifetime, and these are simply dispersed to end up where-ever? while you are in the period of duration between death and rebirth, yes, they went toward manifestation to principles of a similar nature, but when you return, they would not be drawn back to you? The one responsible for their relative quickening of evolution? that anyone might acquire them instead?

The way I see these lower principles that the reincarnating Ego leaves behind in death, is that they ultimately stop finding animals an attraction, but remain in the human arena, while the Ego is away. They can return to the reimbodying Ego without harming whatever human they were a part of. Perhaps I have a completely incorrect perspective on the subject. If there is a more accurate view, I am open to receiving it.

mensagitat,

You asked,

"Then what is the 'point' of the words in italics I pasted above?"

--> I am not really sure. It concerns the preservation of a dead human body so it can be used for a future reincarnation. Such an idea goes against Theosophy.

"What you are saying is these lower aspects, or four flames of a particular reincarnating Ego do not return to the Ego when he comes back to a physical existence?"

--> They do. But, in the example already given, the next set of astral atoms are not the same.

"...these are simply dispersed to end up where-ever?"

--> Yes. Once we rise to a higher level, everything at this level is discarded, not matter how 'pure' it is at this level.

"...they ultimately stop finding animals an attraction...."

--> I am not sure what you mean by 'finding animals an attraction.'

Is there a difference between an atom and a jiva?

And how do astral atoms relate to the two above?

When I asked you what was the point of the words in italics that I pasted, you referred to my words which were written below the italics.

If I go where you don't like me to go, I really don't mind having my post deleted. I do mind obfuscation. Actually, I'm easy going. Its your forum.

mensagitat,

You asked,

"Is there a difference between an atom and a jiva?"

--> I would say an atom is something that has a direct physical manifestation, while jiva does not.

"And how do astral atoms relate to the two above?"

--> Different people have different ideas on this, but I see physical atoms as a group of astral atoms. Astral atoms are not a direct manifestation of Jiva.

"When I asked you what was the point of the words in italics that I pasted, you referred to my words which were written below the italics."

--> I would say the point of the words is that our goal is to become Adepts.

I found this interesting; read these articles you refer to, especially XI in regard to animals and then read Chapter XIX of the Esoteric Tradition, volume 2.

I found an explanation to the Egyptian practice of mummification, but more importantly, reading the chapter from the beginning is very illuminating.

The entire object of mummification, as the Egyptians practised it, was, at least in some respects and as popularly understood, a rather pathetic attempt to restrain, as far as was physically possible, the transmigration of the life-atoms of the human Intermediate Duad and of the Lower Triad through the lower spheres of life, by preserving as long as was possible the physical body from decay.

It seems I was correct. They thought that the lower part of the mind, that part closely tied with kama would hang around the mummy and when their Ego came back once more, they would remember that previous life. In that many transmigrations did not occur while the higher principle was away.

mensagitat,

The question is, after death, what effect does the newly-dead-body have on the newly-departed 'soul'? I have never seen the question addressed in Theosophical literature, but it is a fascinating question.

I remember reading the idea that cremation helps send the dead person to 'the other side' faster, although I do not know if that is true. Who knows?

There have been discussions in Theosophical literature about the state of a newly-dead-person. One theory is that they hang around the physical world for a while, watching and interacting with people who are still alive. Whether this is true or not I do not know. If it is true, we can only imagine what happens when a newly-dead-person views their now-dead body. It would seem to me that the less time a newly-dead-person spends fixating on their now-dead body, the better.

Is there still some kind of connection? Can events that happen to the dead body effect the departed 'soul'? We can only wonder what different effects burial, cremation, or mummification will have on a dead body. I am afraid the jury is still out on this one. Let's see what answers or other theories we can come up with.

I think I see where you are coming from now. I see manas as divided, and the upper part is the reincarnating Ego, with the lower part in close association with kama, prana, lingha, and stulha sarira's. Or desire, life force, astral and physical bodies. Kama is a powerful god, he owns a part of manas - I'm kidding around only to a small extent - and this manas and kamas is the part we all know so well.

The only way I see it affecting the reincarnating Ego, is in just what the latter finds worthy of keeping for itself. But whatever this might be, also contributes to the upward evolving of manas/kama.

Metempsychosis is the emanation of ego souls flowing from the monad. I think that when the reincarnating Ego does its palengenesis thing, it emanates its own manas/kama, but, the life atoms of the manas/kamas of a previous life, are also inevitably drawn to join this manas/kama. Now, this is why one would not want these life atoms to have been involved in a bunch of experiences while the reincarnating Ego was away. They think a better chance of remembering past lives arises.

The other way of remembering these past lives, of course, is simply to reach direct communication to your reincarnating Ego. Did I say simply?

Nick the Pilot said;

The question is, after death, what effect does the newly-dead-body have on the newly-departed 'soul'?

mensagitat;
From what I've read, it has very little effect. Everything leaves the deceased physical body to be in some sort of gestation. Then, Atman/Buddhi goes to where it goes, the Reincarnating Ego goes to Devachan, and the rest goes to hang around the body. Eventually finding similarities to combine with.
~~~
Nick the Pilot said;
mensagitat,

You asked,

"Is there a difference between an atom and a jiva?"

--> I would say an atom is something that has a direct physical manifestation, while jiva does not.

So then, say the hydrogen atom consists of a proton and electron. Does this atom have a soul which might be referred to as the jiva?

If so, then describing the dispersal of the actual physical atoms is to some extent very irrelavent. Except in relation to the purely physical. If I was to speculate, I'd say the jiva's of the physical and astral bodies remain near the dead physical body the longest. I remember reading that Fohat is mostly pranic and that fohat acts as intermediary between spirit and substance. This still confuses me a bit as I thought manas was intermediary between spirit and substance. I have however, shown illustration of manas/kama and manas/prana as being part of the theme in this question concerning the deceased body and the four flames. Prana seems to be the oddity, in that I'm discussing a deceased body.


So, I try to understand all the Theosophical literature that I read, and sometimes I think that I've come across some new understanding that I didn't possess before. The area of metensomatosis is interesting to me right now.

mensagitat,

Take a look at this graphic.



At death, the physical body 'unhooks' from the six other principles. Then, the astral body, the Life Principle (Prana), and the Passions/Desires (Kama) also 'unhook.' Then, the three higher principles 'float up' into Devachan.

After death, all of the 'atoms' of the four lower principles are dispersed. The three higher principles do not disperse, but enter Devachan.

You said,

"...describing the dispersal of the actual physical atoms is to some extent very irrelavent."

--> Describing the dispersal of the 'atoms' of all four lower principles is irrelevant.

"If I was to speculate, I'd say the jiva's of the physical and astral bodies remain near the dead physical body the longest."

--> It may, but all of this is irrelevant to Atma-Buddhi-Manas as it enters Devachan.

"I remember reading that Fohat is mostly pranic and that fohat acts as intermediary between spirit and substance."

--> I am not sure of the connection between Fohat and Prana, but it sounds very possible they have such a connection.

"This still confuses me a bit as I thought manas was intermediary between spirit and substance."

--> It is. It is just a different type of intermediary.

"Prana seems to be the oddity, in that I'm discussing a deceased body."

--> I think that Prana energizes the body while it is still living. Once the body dies, there is no longer a need for Prana to energize it any more, so that 'chunk' of Prana merely dissipates into nothingness.

seventh paragraph of the Introduction within MAHATMA LETTERS To A. P. SINNETT from The Mahatmas M. & K. H.

"...At death, consciousness which pertains to the seventh, sixth, and fifth principles of man, (and in these are included the soul, and spirit and all that makes man human) withdraws into an unconscious gestation period which precedes re-birth in the Deva Chan or heaven-world. It leaves behind it, the physical corpse, the etheric counterpart or double, and lastly the emotional and mental shell which is the correspondence in subtler matter of the physical body, and which may be termed the vehicle of consciousness on its own plane, just as the physical body is the vehicle of consciousness in the physical world. It must be understood clearly however, that each of these empty shells has a certain illusory awareness or consciousness of its own, which is the collective consciousness of the aggragation of atoms and molecules of which they are composed, and quite distinct from the consciousness of the individual, or real entity, which informed them in life. The physical body has a similar consciousness which is purely animal and instinctive in nature. At death the consciousness of even the shell leaves it for a time, and does not return to it until the withdrawal of 5th, 6th, and 7th principles is complete. Not until after that is accomplished, does a certain awareness of existence return to the empty shells..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/pram-prj.htm


Prana (Sanskrit) [from pra before + the verbal root an to breathe, live] In theosophy, the breath of life; the third principle in the ascending scale of the sevenfold human constitution. This life or prana works on, in, and around us, pulsating unceasingly during the term of physical existence. Prana is "the radiating force or Energy of Atma -- as the Universal Life and the One Self, -- Its lower or rather (in its effects) more physical, because manifesting, aspect. Prana or Life permeates the whole being of the objective Universe; and is called a 'principle' only because it is an indispensable factor and the deus ex machina of the living man" (Key 176).

In working upon the physical body, prana automatically uses the linga-sarira (model-body) as its vehicle of expression during earth-life. Prana may be said to be the psychoelectric veil or field manifesting in the individual as vitality. The life-atoms of prana fly instantly back, at the moment of physical dissolution, to the natural pranic reservoirs of the planet. Further, occultism teaches that "(a) the life-atoms of our (Prana) life-principle are never entirely lost when a man dies. That the atoms best impregnated with the life-principle (an independent, eternal, conscious factor) are partially transmitted from father to son by heredity, and partially are drawn once more together and become the animating principle of the new body in every new incarnation of the Monads. Because (b ), as the individual Soul is even the same, so are the atoms of the lower principles (body, its astral, or life double, etc.), drawn as they are by affinity and Karmic law always to the same individuality in a series of various bodies, etc. . . ." (SD 2:671-2).

In Sanskrit it refers to the life currents or vital fluids, variously numbered as three, five, seven, twelve, and thirteen. The five life-winds mentioned are samana, vyana, prana, apana, and udana. In this classification prana represents the expirational breath.

Jiva is sometimes used similarly to prana, but strictly prana means outbreathing and jiva means life per se. There is a universal or cosmic jiva or life principle, just as there are innumerable hosts of individualized jivas, which are the atoms of the former, drops in the ocean of cosmic life. These individualized jivas are relatively eternal, and correspond exactly to the term monad. Jiva, without qualification, is of general application; when considered as individualized, these jivas are used in the sense of individual monads; contrariwise, prana is applied to the life-fluid or jivic aura when manifesting in the lower triad of the human constitution as prana-lingasarira-sthulasarira. Hence Blavatsky said that jiva becomes prana when the child is born and begins to breathe.