Hi,

In many countries, the list of people waiting for organ transplant is very long. Some governments require that the organ (liver, cornea and so on) of a person killed in an accident be transplanted quickly to those on the list so that lives can be saved. They assume that people have given their consent when they are alive unless they 'opt out' from the scheme.

But some religions forbid or discourage their devotees from staying in the scheme. I also remember reading an article on death written by HPB, that the dead should not be moved for some time because of life review.

Does this mean that organ transplant in the above context is non-Theosophist? What's your view everyone?

Thanks

Hi, Yesspiritual, and welcome to the Forum.

You said,

"I also remember reading an article on death written by HPB, that the dead should not be moved for some time because of life review."

--> This is correct. At the moment of death, the newly-deceased reviews their entire life. (Disturbing them at this time is a bad idea.) You may have heard Buddhists say that the last thought a person has before they die decides what they will be in their next life. This is partially true, because at that time, they are reviewing their life.

"Does this mean that organ transplant in the above context is non-Theosophist?"

--> No. Once the life-review is complete (and once the "soul" has completely disconnected from the body), organ transplants are OK.

~~~

I want to again welcome you to the Forum. Please take time to tell us a little about yourself in the Introductions Section.

Hi Nick the Pilot,

Thanks.

You said -->Once the life-review is complete (and once the "soul" has completely disconnected from the body), organ transplants are OK.

I don't know how soon must the organ transplant operation take place after the victim's death, very very soon I presumed. So how long is the life-review process and how long does it take for the silver cord to be disconnected?

You said-->You may have heard Buddhists say that the last thought a person has before they die decides what they will be in their next life.

Yes, I think that Mahayanan Buddhists believe that, depending on his tendencies, habits and so on, it can take up to 8 hours for the victim's consciousness to leave his body. If the operation takes place too soon, the victim will feel great pain (imagine being cut up without anaesthesia) and his last thought will be one of anguish or anger and regret, and these 'last negative thoughts' will very likely cause him to be reborn in the lower realms. (Though the law of karma teaches otherwise)

So if unsure, isn't it safer not to commit to organ transplant (upon accidental death)? But what if one or one's loved one is on the 'waiting list'? :(

Thanks
P.S. Intro oneself in 'Introduction'? OK will think of something to write :)

Yesspiritual,

You asked,

"So how long is the life-review process and how long does it take for the silver cord to be disconnected?"

--> I do not know. I have a psychic friend, so when I get a chance, I will ask her.

"If the operation takes place too soon, the victim will feel great pain (imagine being cut up without anaesthesia) and his last thought will be one of anguish or anger and regret...."

--> I think that, once the person is dead, being cut up will not hurt. The only concern HPB had was, do not disturb the life-review process.

"...and these 'last negative thoughts' will very likely cause him to be reborn in the lower realms."

--> I think Theosophy takes a different view of what rebirth is. HPB taught that humans are always reborn as humans, so being 'reborn in the lower realms' is not technically correct. She did teach that there are several levels in the afterlife, and that a bad person can spend some uncomfortable time in a low-level afterlife-plane. Buddhism teaches we can be 'reborn' in the lower realms, which I see as a difference between Buddhism and Theosophy.

"Intro oneself in 'Introduction'? OK will think of something to write."

--> You can tell us things like which country you are in, whether you are a student or a worker, and what effect Theosophy has had on you. (I am curious as to what your answers will be!)

Each organ has the person's imprint and its own awareness. That is why successful transplants need such heavy amounts of anti-rejection drugs to continue to function in the new person. There is such a mismatch that in some cases the personality of the recipient is changed by the new organ's influence.

In addition, the old organ is supposed to disintigrate through cremation or burial. If it does not, then there is a karmic complication for the person it once belonged to. The astral and other lower principles cannot return to their proper spheres because it is now part of another living body.

Another reason for one to not have a transplant or donate an organ is it strengthens our craving for incarnation and fear of death.

So I am not in favor of it.

Hi Nick the Pilot,

You said

I was at the local lodge last night to attend a refresher course in Theosophy and the speaker said that according to clairvoyant the life-review process is very quick, something like 2 to 3 seconds (our time), and then the silver cord is disconnected.

If that's true, I think we can safely conclude that the person who dies in an accident will feel no pain when his organ is being transplanted to another person.

Personally I find it compelling to agree to organ transplant because my loved ones or even myself may be on the waiting list for certain organ one day.

Thanks.

Yesspiritual,

Unfortunately, I have not been in contact with that psychic person for some time. I do not know if I will talk to her soon.

In the meantime, you have heard both (opposing) opinions from two Theosophists (myself and Nicholas). I guess you just have to make your own final decision. It sounds like you are making good progress towards making such a decision.

Christianmyst,

The life-review process takes place at the time of death (I take that to mean when the silver cord is in the process of disconnection, and not after it is disconnected). Then we enter the Astral Plane. We were also told that life span in the Astral Plane ranges from 40-50 years for a primitive man, to a few days or just hours for a developed man; most of ours are somewhere in between i.e. 20-40 years. After that we move on to the Mental Plane.

But you are saying that the life-review process takes place in the Mental Plane?

Thank you.

Christian,

That is a lot of information, and thank you for it. You certainly have access to information that us "non-Mediums" do not have.

You said,

"This view is going to be in conflict with Nicks', our Host. Sorry for that, but in this case I have to differ."

--> Please do not apologize. One of the greatest things about Theosophy is that people with different ideas are allowed to participate. I was just thinking about how, early in the Theosophical movement, there was a discussion about having a clergy and religion within Theosophy. Thank goodness, the idea was shot down. We definitely do not need a "Theosophical Pope," someone who is going to tell us what we can and cannot believe.

You have brought up the question of what Theosophy defines as the soul. Here is a quote from The Secret Doctrine.

“ ... the Secret Doctrine teaches ... The fundamental identity of all Souls with the Universal Over-Soul, the latter being itself an aspect of the Unknown Root; and the obligatory pilgrimage for every Soul — a spark of the former — through the Cycle of Incarnation (or "Necessity") in accordance with Cyclic and Karmic law, during the whole term. In other words, no purely spiritual Buddhi (divine Soul) can have an independent (conscious) existence before the spark which issued from the pure Essence of the Universal Sixth principle, — or the Over-Soul, — has (a) passed through every elemental form of the phenomenal world of that Manvantara, and (B ) acquired individuality, first by natural impulse, and then by self-induced and self-devised efforts (checked by its Karma), thus ascending through all the degrees of intelligence, from the lowest to the highest Manas, from mineral and plant, up to the holiest archangel (Dhyani-Buddha). The pivotal doctrine of the Esoteric philosophy admits no privileges or special gifts in man, save those won by his own Ego through personal effort and merit throughout a long series of metempsychoses and reincarnations.” (The Secret Doctrine, vol. I, p. 17)

Here, HPB is defining the soul as that "chunk" of spirit that travels down through all the Planes of Existence, and then travel back up.

However, we are presently dealing with small chunk of spirit, that chunk that is reincarnating as a human. This requires a more specific definition, regarding the cycle of reincarnations we are presently going through. The human soul would be best described as the Reincarnating Ego.

"The Reincarnating Ego" (Voice of the Silence, #'s 51, 116, 126)

I do not have a quote handy, but I think "Reincarnating Ego" refers to The Lower Mind. I believe the Lower Mind (Lower Manas) is what HPB says is the "object" that travels from reincarnation to reincarnation.

~~~

A few other terms in the literature need to be covered.

HPB refers to Buddhi as Soul.

"...'Atma-Buddhi-Manas' (Spirit, Soul, Intelligence)...." (SD 1:19)

"HUMAN PRINCIPLES.
(1) Spirit*
(2) Soul
Vehicle of Spirit
(3) Mind
(4) Animal Soul
Upadhi of Mind
(5) Life
(6) Astral Body
Upadhi of Life
(7) Physical Body" (SD 1:153

However, HPB also refers to Lower-Manas as Soul.

"...human Soul (lower fifth principle)." (SD 1:19)

"When our Soul (mind) creates or evokes a thought...." (SD 1:93)

"Manas -- the Mind-Principle, or the human Soul." (SD 1:101)

HPB then distinguishes the two kinds of soul.

"1, Atma; 2, Buddhi (or [I]Spiritual Soul); 3, Manas (Human Soul); 4, Kama Rupa (Vehicle of Desires and Passions); 5, Linga Sarira; 6, Prana; 7, Sthula Sarira." [/i] (SD 1:15)

We also have HPB's curious use of the term "dual soul".

"...the term "human monad" applies only to the dual soul (Atma-Buddhi)...." (SD 1:178)

We also have HPB's curious use of the term "astral soul".

"...an astral soul...." (SD 1:195)

I find the idea of Reincarnating Ego to be the best idea of what we mean by human and reincarnating soul.

Christian,

Oh, darn, I was editing my post just as you were posting. (I edited my post to distinguish universal-soul-stuff from human souls.) You do make a good point, that HPB refers to the World-Soul, Universal-Soul, etc. These are things that are quite different than a human soul.

Me, Theosophical Pope? Sorry, no can do, I just ran out of holy water. (And what is that light-sabre-looking thing called, the thing Catholic priests shake, and use to spray water on people?)

Sorry, I do not see a Center function in this software.

First to the reincarnating soul or ego - it is the higher manas or buddhi-manas.

Nicholas, is your comment (B ) a thought or view, or a theosophical concept? I am not seeing how (A) must result in (B ). Or another way of saying this, (B ) could be a requirement for other reasons than (A) specifically, or (A) alone. My thoughts, not any formal view.

Just my inference, but based on the unique nature or vibration of each person and therefore their organs. Since the astral organ is the source of the physical one, when John's liver is put into Hester's body there will be a mismatch.

This sounds superstitious. Is this a formal or developed Theosophical view, or some current thinking on this topic, or opinion? It could be, for all I know, but my "claircognizance" immediately indicates "no." In other words, my sense. I should think if this was a [fact], as the expression would indicate, then we would have heard more about this in the News.

Better take your claircognizance into the shop for a tuneup.

It is based on testimony of patients, but it makes sense from the astral mismatch that theosophy suggests (there were no transplants until recently). I cannot recall the book & movie made from it (and there is other testimony from transplant patients) but it had to do with a woman getting a heart from a male biker. She was psychologically goofy for quite a while. She had cravings for beer and other foodstuffs the biker liked; thoughts foreign to her nature kept popping into her mind etc. She was able to trace the family of the biker and confirmed that her new tastes & inclinations & dreams were his. The family eventually found solace that their son's heart was still alive.

Re: old organ in new body complicating karma: How much of a problem, one can only speculate (as I am). But if the old organ is being impressed with new energies (which come from thoughts & feelings of the new person) then when the life atoms from that old/new organ (after the death of the patient) are attracted to the reborn person there will be a mismatch again.

Re: fear of death: Anything to preserve our body & avoid death is the attitude that is fed into by transplants. So the mind is focused even more narrowly on the physical realm.


Re: intense resolution of bright white light, but almost infinetly small. This is about a foot out in front of what the New Age circle would call the "Third Eye," or the Brow Chakra.

Have you ever practiced Kriya yoga? If not, you might check out the teachings. They describe a point of light within a circle of same etc. in front of the 3rd eye.

Found the book/movie I was writing about:

http://www.friendsofjane.com/tvmovies_stra..._specials.shtml

ChristianMyst,

It will take me a while to digest your post. But I have something on the above to share.

I have not read the Tibetan Book of the Dead, but I have almost finished reading The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by Sogyal Rinpoche. On page 294 he wrote, "In the bardo of becoming we relive all the experiences of our past life, reviewing minute details long lost to memory, and revisiting places." I believe this is either his interpretation of The Tibetan Book of the Dead, or the experience of developed Lamas, or both.

Thanks

I can not speak for everyone. But I was taught not to have an organ transplant, as the belief was that whatever the donor brought over from a past life would go into the person that needed the transplant. If the donor had had cancer or some other disease or was a terrible human being the one waiting for the transplant would not only take on the disease or the karma of that person. The same holds true for blood transfusion. It would not be in ones best interest to have any dead tissue or bone from a cadaver either. This has resurfaced in recent years as people who have had their neck fused with the bone of a cadaver or an organ transplant have come down with diseases like cancer and aids. There was a huge scandal a few years back detailing this very thing.

Hi Sara,

That would be an unfair Law of Karma we have, wouldn't it? Is that also why members of certain Christian denomination refuse to accept medical care, I wonder?

As for Buddhists, they believe that everyone's thought, speech and action are stored in the 8th Consciousness, the Alaya, and it's based on these here that the Law of Karma applies.

What do the rest think of Sara's posting?

Regards

Yesspiritual,

I agree that, if we got a disease from a donated organ, we would not be taking on that person's karma. When bad karma comes, it comes, whether it comes from a falling piano or a bad organ transplant.

I also agree that blood transfusions carry a danger. I must agree with the Jehovah's Witnesses that we should donate blood, and then use our own blood for our own surgical procedures. This is in the ideal world, of course. Unfortunately, we are not always able to make such good planning for an unplanned operation.

The British Sunday Times ran an editorial last weekend (July 6) about the Law of Unintended Consequences. If you act in ignorance there is no doubt that unforeseen consequences will come back and bite you in the butt. (eg, The Treaty of Versailles was concerned with sorting out the mess of WW1 but inadvertently set in motion the chain of events that would lead to WW2; when Henry VIII filed for divorce he inadvertently created the Church of England and 20th century organ fund appeals.)

Science generally acts in ignorance of spiritual matters, and so we can expect unintended consequences. The basic premise of medical science is that life must be preserved at all costs. If we look at life from the perspective of the soul’s journey, this is a deeply flawed premise. Death is merely a transition, and not to be avoided at all costs. Enlightened beings might move through the transition swiftly; most of us will no doubt be confused in death as we are in life. If you are newly-mangled in a traumatic auto accident will it be that much more traumatic to have a couple of organs cut out of your body? On the other hand, for medics to keep the body alive so that the organs can remain fresh ~ and then pounce as soon as the heart stops; well, that seems like it could induce considerable trauma to the bewildered soul who doesn’t know (s)he is dead.

I would not be in too much of a hurry either to donate an organ (I’m probably too old and decrepit for them to have much value anyway) or to receive one. As for loved ones, that’s a tough call. Is your belief in an onward path for the soul to follow stronger than your attachment to the loved one?

We can each make a personal choice, but I suggest that without proof we cannot presume to challenge the perceived wisdom of the medics or the wishes of the population at large. Quoting from HPB or the Tibetan Book of the Dead would not be proof for most people.

I was assuming that people all over the world read the scandal with the illegal harvesting of organs and all the diseases and sickness people came down with from having the transplant, plus the numerous amount of people who die everyday from transfusions that
have come from infected people. With that information on hand you do not need the Book of the Dead or some Theosophical Book, there is the proof right there. This is exactly what Madame Blavatsky predicted as Katherine Tingley and others, you do not need a crystal ball, they knew what was to come. I myself choose to not have an organ transplant or blood from someone else, as I said this is just my feelings. However if most people actually read and paid attention I think that some will change their mind, but basically people do not want to know the truth or the dirty details of a situation, they would rather go through it with their heads in the sand. Me I go through life with my head way above the sand. I do not know when I am going to die or what from, but I always like to cover my bets. Just my little two nickles.