View Full Version: Kukai ranks Paths

Theosophy Forum > Religions, Philosophies, etc. > Kukai ranks Paths



Title: Kukai ranks Paths


Nicholas - July 22, 2007 12:16 AM (GMT)
Kukai (774-835) founded the Shingon sect of Japan, based to some degree on the esoteric Chinese Secret school.

Here are some old notes of mine from Kukai: Major Works giving his appraisal of varied spiritual paths.

Worldly Rebirth

1) Foolish Goat - pre-humanistic - the intoxicated, ignorant worldlings, aware only of their appetites.
2) Stupid Child - humanistic - only when pressed by circumstances does he think of moderation. Confucianism
3) Fearless Child - trans-humanistic - one expecting heavenly rebirth, dependent as a calf. Hinduism, Taoism, Christianity

Hinayana

4) Elements only & no-self - Shravaka Buddhism
5) Removing karmic seeds; understanding chain of causation, with fruit of silence. Pratyeka Buddhism, Vedanta, Yoga, Mysticism.

Mahayana

6) Concern for others - Yogacara
First arising of great compassion for all. Insight into mind's false thinking, produces non-attachment.
7) Non-arising - Three Treatises - Prajnaparamita
8) Universal Path to Truth - T'ien -T'ai
9) Truth has no essence - Hua Yen, Avatamsaka

Buddhayana

10) Secret -True Word (Shingon) - Occultism

Nick the Pilot - July 22, 2007 09:10 AM (GMT)
Nicholas,

Thanks for sharing that. I had not seen Kukai's list of Paths before.

DavidC - June 6, 2008 08:35 AM (GMT)
Hinayana, Madhayana (sp?,) and Mahayana may be the lesser, middle, and great Buddhism vehicles. I thought Mahayana is 'great vehicle,' so I do not see why he said Buddhayana, which it seems they all would be.

Nick the Pilot - June 6, 2008 05:19 PM (GMT)
David,

Just to let you know, some people consider the term Hinayana to be degrading. The term Theravada is much preferred.

DavidC - June 6, 2008 10:31 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
Just to let you know, some people consider the term Hinayana to be degrading. The term Theravada is much preferred.


I know, but Buddha Siddhartha mentioned a small vehicle, i.e. Hinayana, and a middle and great vehicle; surely it is okay for that definition. Theraveda means something else, like 'vehicle (or whatever) of the elders.' Maybe they also think it can be madhayana.

Nick the Pilot - June 6, 2008 10:33 PM (GMT)
"...Siddhartha mentioned a small vehicle...."

--> Do you have the quote?

DavidC - June 7, 2008 03:32 AM (GMT)
I think is in Diamond Sutra or Lotus Sutra and maybe also the larger versions of one (if in the one with larger versions,) but I have no printed or single-file copy and do not want to go through it on a computer right now. Maybe a Mahayana teacher made up 3 vehicles, but I think the sutras mentioning it are Mahayana (at least Ch'an) canon, and did not Buddha SIddhartha go to China? Even the 1st post lists 3 vehicles, but I did not think they are the usual names.

Nick the Pilot - June 7, 2008 05:06 PM (GMT)
David,

It is unfortunate you were unable to find that quote.

Kukai was a Mahayana Buddhist. He also lived in Japan, far far away from the lands of Theravadin Buddhism. It is possible he had no idea that Theravadin Buddhists consider the term Hinayana to be condescending.

Let me tell you the story I heard, even though I did not get it from a Theosophical source. (I do not remember where I heard it.) The story is, Mahayana Buddhists chose to call their own Buddhism the greater version, and the Theravadin version the lesser version, in a case of "our version is better than your version." This explanation makes sense to me.

DavidC - June 8, 2008 09:37 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
It is unfortunate you were unable to find that quote.

Kukai was a Mahayana Buddhist. He also lived in Japan, far far away from the lands of Theravadin Buddhism. It is possible he had no idea that Theravadin Buddhists consider the term Hinayana to be condescending.

Let me tell you the story I heard, even though I did not get it from a Theosophical source. (I do not remember where I heard it.) The story is, Mahayana Buddhists chose to call their own Buddhism the greater version, and the Theravadin version the lesser version, in a case of "our version is better than your version." This explanation makes sense to me.


I did not want to read much yesterday, but I am off school for summer. Years ago I read Lotus Sutra at http://lotus.nichirenshu.org/lotus/sutra/e...h/hokke-idx.htm, and recently Great Sutra on Perfect Wisdom translated by Edward Conze, and I re-checked them: they do say 'lesser vehicle,' great vehicle,' 'three vehicles,' etc. The perfect wisdom sutra (actually both are 'perfect wisdom' ones) is 200 - 300 pages so I only checked the glossary, but it lists disciple, pratekyabuddha, and bodhisattva vehicles (I think the translation of Lotus sutra I read more says voice-hearer, bodhisattva, and Buddha vehicles,) and classifies them hinayana & mahayana. Each book says 'vehicle' about at least 100 times; would you like a longer quote?

I probably heard/read the story you mentioned. I do think that being a bodhisattva rather than only seeking self-liberation is better philosophy which has more chance of improving the world, but IIRC Dhammapada says it is important to treat others well, which is the most important bodhisattva idea. Obviously treating others well includes helping their liberation. I would not be surprised if the Pali canon abhidharma directly says that--I suspect it directly implies it--but if so maybe few people know. Few people are bodhisattvas, and in one Mahayana country there are/were black magic schools, which I just think is coincidence. Mahayana is not like most 'fundamentalist Christianity' but teaches spreading of selflessness rather than irresponsibility. So does Theraveda.

There is an esoteric psychology and meditation site that ranks paths, and among the highest it lists Sant Mat which I think is a Sikhism. I cannot find the site, but it is not that convincing. The post elsewhere here about 'memes' is more interesting.

Nick the Pilot - June 8, 2008 04:52 PM (GMT)
David,

You said,

"I do think that being a bodhisattva rather than only seeking self-liberation is better philosophy which has more chance of improving the world...."

--> I would like to repeat an idea I heard from a Theosophical writer. Yes, there are two kinds of people in this world — people who pursue Enlightenment for the selfish purpose of entering Nirvana quickly, and people who pursue Enlightenment for the unselfish purpose of forsaking Nirvana and staying here to help the rest of us.

The point the writer made — a point that I agree with — is that we should all try to accelerate our progress to Enlightenment. Then, at that time, we can decide whether to enter or forsake Nirvana. Let's not get into a big debate over who has the better motivation to work towards Enlightenment. Let's all work together to help each other to work towards Enlightenment as fast as possible, and save worrying about Nirvana / no-Nirvana decisions for when we get there. I think we have no idea how we will choose, when we finally achieve Enlightenment and are offered the Nirvana / no-Nirvana choice.

Jim B - June 8, 2008 05:35 PM (GMT)
There is an article in the Summer 2008 issue of Buddhadharma. It is Between Arhat and Bodhisattva, Finding the Perfect Balance, by Ajahn Amaro.
Jim B

jon_k - June 9, 2008 06:24 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Nick the Pilot @ Jun 8 2008, 10:52 AM)
Let's all work together to help each other to work towards Enlightenment as fast as possible, and save worrying about Nirvana / no-Nirvana decisions for when we get there.

Let's all work together to help each other, period. We don't have to wait for Enlightenment.
What ever you do should be done for unselfish purposes. If so, you will find yourself on the doorstep of Nirvana, without even trying.

QUOTE
Let's not get into a big debate over who has the better motivation to work towards Enlightenment.

Agreed.

Nick the Pilot - June 9, 2008 08:57 PM (GMT)
Jim,

Thanks for the reference to Arhats and Bodhisattvas. For those who do not know, there are several traditions within Buddhism, and two of them are Mahayana and Theravada. The one big difference between the two is that some forms of Mahayana encourage their members to take the Bodhisattva Vow, which is a vow to strive for Enlightenment, yet forsake Nirvana. Theravada does not suggest its members take such a vow. Indeed, the Bodhisattva Vow has been called the greatest difference between Theravada and Mahayana.




Hosted for free by InvisionFree