Hi Nick, et al.--

I've spent a good part of the morning browsing your website. Much useful information presented in a well-organized fashion. You're definitely one up on Powell!

I'm working on a new book (my fifth), with the working title: The Multidimensional Human: Astral Projection as a Spiritual Practice. It's a reworking and updating of Besant's, Leadbeater's, and Powell's work on the subject, combined with my own 35 years of astral projection and channeling experience. Check out my website for more information about my books and a sampling of astral projection adventures:
Kurt Leland's Spiritual Orienteering

The OBE-Log will take you to some older astral projection experiences. The link to the Multidimensional Human blog goes to some more recent ones.

I discovered the Theosophical perspective on astral projection in November 2005, with Besant's Man and His Bodies, went on to the Powell books, and have read probably 90 percent of the books listed in his bibliographies. The result was a huge acceleration of spiritual growth, initiated by how closely my astral projection experiences since 1973 conformed to the model and progression outlined in Theosophy. Once I was clear about the steps I'd completed, it was possible to set my goals on the next, as outlined in Theosophy.

Now, the inquiry. I'm working on the chapters in my book on the higher planes. I just completed those on the buddhic (intuitional) plane and am about to bring material on the nirvanic (atmic, spiritual) plane into final form. I've come across two interesting leads that I have been unable to pursue beyond a certain point. Maybe people on the forum can help.

I've read Arundale's book Nirvana and would be interested in any links or book references to other material on the nirvanic plane.

I also have two high-octane questions. The first concerns a passage in Leadbeater, from Talks on the Path of Occultism, vol. 2, "The Voice of the Silence." On page 100 of the 2004 print edition, Leadbeater speaks of "the seven worlds of rest eternal," claiming that "those worlds are the sub-planes of the atmic plane, through which the Arhat begins to climb."

I'm especially interested in any information on subplanes of the nirvanic/atmic/spiritual plane. Does anybody know anything about the seven worlds of rest eternal? I haven't seen any other references to this subject in the literature I'm familiar with.

My second question concerns attributions of the higher initiations (fifth through tenth) to specific subplanes of the nirvanic, monadic, and divine planes. Here is a link to an interesting pamphlet published by someone named Hallett in the 1930s.

Studies in Ray Correspondences

See diagram 2 and subsequent discussion. (Don't fail to scroll down to diagram 4 for a mind-blowing chart of correspondences between human and angelic evolutions and musical keys).

Here's a summary of the relevant information:

Buddhic plane

5th subplane = first initiation

4th subplane = second initiation

2nd subplane = third initiation

Nirvanic plane

6th subplane = fourth initiation

2nd subplane = fifth initiation

Monadic plane

6th subplane = sixth initiation

4th subplane = seventh initiation

2nd subplane = eighth initiation

Divine plane

6th subplane = ninth initiation

2nd subpplane = tenth (Silent Watcher) initiation

Does anyone know where this tabulation comes from? I haven't seen references to it in any of the literature I'm familiar with and subsequent web searches have turned up nothing.

Thanks for your patience in wading through all this. I look forward to any form of helpful response.

Kurt

Hi Kurt, and welcome to the Forum.

Thank you for taking a look at my webpage. It is in an ongoing progress of update, so if you can find any mistakes, or offer any suggestions, please do not hesitate.

You said,

"It's a reworking and updating of Besant's, Leadbeater's, and Powell's work on the subject, combined with my own 35 years of astral projection and channeling experience."

--> It will be interesting to hear how you tie all of that together. Feel free to give us examples of ways you have tied the three authors' and your ideas together. By the way, we have another psychic member who is named Christian. it will be interesting to see how your ideas fit with his.

"The result was a huge acceleration of spiritual growth, initiated by how closely my astral projection experiences since 1973 conformed to the model and progression outlined in Theosophy."

--> I am looking forward to hearing specifics. Theosophy is dedicated to getting new information on the exact topics you are interested in, so I hope we will more about your investigations.

"I've read Arundale's book Nirvana and would be interested in any links or book references to other material on the nirvanic plane."

--> Sadly, such information is in short supply in Theosophy. All I have is Arundale's book (which I have posted on my website).

"I'm especially interested in any information on subplanes of the nirvanic/atmic/spiritual plane."

--> Theosophy only has a little information on these sub-planes. Here is what I have.

You are probably familiar with my charts regarding the Astral and Mental Planes.



The area in red in the above chart refers to what most people would call the "worlds of rest".



It is important to note that there is disagreement among Theosophists as to whether Devachan is the Lower Mental Planes, the Higher Mental Planes, or some other combination of the seven sub-planes.

Your question does not pertain to the Astral Plane, but it may help other readers understand the different sub-planes. Your question about the "seven worlds of rest eternal" may pertain to the Astral and Mental Planes, although I do not think so. (They are places of rest, although not places of eternal rest.) The same is true of the sub-planes of the Mental Plane.

This brings us to your question as it relates to the Buddhic and Atman Planes. Unfortunately, I have never seen a breakdown of the sub-planes of the Buddhic and Atman Planes in Theosophical literature. As to whether they are places of rest (or eternal rest) I doubt it. It seems to me, the Buddhic and Atman Planes are places of great activity, not rest. (Do you agree?)

"My second question concerns attributions of the higher initiations (fifth through tenth) to specific subplanes of the nirvanic, monadic, and divine planes."

--> First, I am sure you have already seen Leadbeater's chart of the Initiations:



I have expanded his chart a bit:













FP refers to C. Jinarajadasa's book, The First Principles of Theosophy.
http://users.ez2.net/nick29/theosophy/fp-index.htm

I could not get the whole chart on here in one piece, so please add these two frames to Line Eight, next to "Pratyeka Budda":



Please add these two frames to Line Seven, next to "Manu":



Now to your question. No, I am quite unfamiliar with the conditions of the higher initiations. These type of information has been left out of Theosophical literature. I suppose this is because we are expected to only concentrate on our task at hand, which is to prepare for the Fifth Inititiation.

"Does anyone know where this tabulation comes from?"

--> Sorry, I do not.

"Thanks for your patience in wading through all this. I look forward to any form of helpful response."

--> I am glad to help out, although I am afraid I have not been very helpful. Feel free to ask any other questions, and I will try to do better!

You seem to be quite familiar with Theosophy, so I hope you will join in some the other discussions at this Forum.

It's good to have you aboard!

Hi Nick--

Thanks for the quick response. Perhaps because of the charts you included, the width of your post exceeded the size of my screen, with the result that I had to copy it into wordpad to read it (and of course the diagrams got cut out). Could this be corrected? I'll do the best I can to reply, cutting and pasting from wordpad.

I wasn't familiar with Jinarajadasa's book before encountering your website. It's a great compilation. Thanks for making the effort to bring it back into currency.

I was largely familiar with the diagrams you posted, or at least the material they contained. I admit my questions pertain to obscure references to even more obscure subjects.

However, I made a possibly useful discovery about a passage in "Voice of the Silence," as a result of one of Leadbeater's remarks about it in Talks on the Path of Occultism, vol. 2. In his commentary on the chapter "The Seven Sounds," Leadbeater says that these sounds "Mark the attainment of the seven sub-planes of the buddhic plane" (121).

Here is what I wrote in my book on that passage:

Another theosophical tradition describes how the developmental stages of the buddhic body are linked with the seven subplanes of the buddhic plane. This tradition is based on nada yoga, the yoga of sound.

Nada yoga describes ten inner sounds heard during meditation as signs of progress toward samadhi, the bliss associated with the buddhic body. In Theosophy, there are seven.

As portrayed in The Voice of the Silence, a theosophical classic transcribed by Madame Blavatsky from ancient scriptures perceived clairvoyantly, these seven inner sounds represent the “attainment of the seven sub-planes of the buddhic plane.”

They mark the stages of development of the buddhic body, both literally and metaphorically: literally, in the sense that we may hear them, or something like them, as the development of the buddhic body progresses through meditation and pursuing astral projection as a spiritual practice; metaphorically, in that each sound represents a lesson to be learned as we rise through the seven subplanes of the buddhic plane.

The first sound is said to be like “the nightingale’s sweet voice chanting a song of parting to its mate.” Such a song is bittersweet, as we leave the human personality behind, with the causal body, and are seductively drawn closer to the Source.

The song of the nightingale is complicated, containing many notes. As we rise through the subplanes of the buddhic plane, the inner sounds become simpler. The complications perceived in life’s multiplicity disappear, replaced by a sense of oneness.

The second sound is like “a silver cymbal” that awakens “the twinkling stars.” We become increasingly aware of the call of the Source, as in the adventure in which I heard distant chimes that seemed to contain the questions “Who are you?” and “What is your place?” Besant also mentions hearing “something like silver chimes” in her meditation practice. Stars once again emphasize the idea of multiplicity.

The third sound is “the plaint melodious of the ocean-sprite imprisoned in its shell.” Now we’re beginning to experience the unity consciousness of the buddhic plane, its ocean of bliss. But this bliss is only an echo of that awaiting us within the Source, just as the sound of the ocean heard in a conch shell is only an echo of the actual ocean’s roar.

We’re also beginning to experience human consciousness as limiting, imprisoning. An ocean sprite would be completely at home in the Source. That’s the state of being we’re striving for. Yet we still have a bittersweet feeling over leaving our humanity behind, so the sound is a plaint--melodious because it continues to draw us on toward the Source with its beauty.

The fourth sound is like “the chant of the vīnā,” an Indian string instrument with three drone strings and four melody strings, associated with the Indian goddess of wisdom, Saraswati. We’re now at the halfway point in our journey through the seven subplanes of the buddhic plane. The plaint is gone.

The vīnā symbolizes coming into tune with ourselves (melody strings) and the Source (the drone strings, which provide the fundamental tones that underlie our melodies, just as in yoga OM, the nonphysical sound of the Absolute, underlies all physical sounds). Multiplicity has been reduced to just seven strings. But we’re still separate from the Source, as the melody and drone strings are separate from each other. Meanwhile, the goddess of wisdom who plays the vīnā suggests the achievement of a unified consciousness, its separate strands (strings) induced to perform a unified harmonious composition.

The fifth sound is that of a shrilling bamboo flute. The vīnā is quiet, but plays simultaneous sounds (melody and drone). The flute can only play one sound at a time. Thus the shrilling flute represents an intensification of one-pointed concentration, the goal of meditation, another step in the direction of reducing multiplicity to oneness. The flute, however, can still play a multiplicity of notes.

The sixth sound is a “trumpet-blast.” Here we have a greater intensification of one-pointed concentration. But Indian trumpets can only play a couple of notes, further reducing multiplicity toward oneness.

The seventh sound is that of “the dull rumbling of a thunder-cloud.” This sound “swallows all the other sounds.”

Thunder contains all sounds, just as mastery of the buddhic body means becoming one with all. Multiplicity has been completely reduced to such oneness--all the separate sounds of individual beings subsumed into an awareness and direct experience of their unity in the Source. This is the final lesson of the buddhic plane, the gateway to the nirvanic.

Leadbeater only mentioned the connection. The interpretation of Blavatsky is mine. You can see why I would be anxious to follow up Leadbeater's suggestion about the nirvanic plane subplanes--if only I could figure out what he was pointing to.

I agree with you about the oddness of calling the busy nonphysical home of the masters a place of eternal rest. My theory is either that a) Leadbeater was referencing something Blavatsky wrote that he didn't bother to cite (does anyone have a searchable CD-ROM of her works?) ; or that he was waxing poetic to impress his audience (didn't someone say he pranced like a lion?) and may have spoken better than he knew, without ever following up on it with further investigation.

I'm familiar with Theosophy only to the extent that any of its branches has a direct bearing on astral projection, and as much as possible in experiential and practical or applied terms. In my book I only refer to what I have direct experience of or what seems plausible on the basis of multiple sources, especially other non-theosophical astral projectors. Thus I can only comment here on what I know, and there's a lot of Blavatsky I don't know.

My astral adventures have taken me into what I call the Dream Zone and the Afterdeath Zone. I name each area of nonphysical reality I encounter after its function in order not to load it down with terminology and assumptions from other esoteric systems.

The Dream Zone corresponds to the part of the astral plane we all have access to during sleep. There is also a part of the Afterdeath Zone that parallels the Dream Zone, but is closed off to most living humans. Souls of the deceased are confined there until they've released the unexpressed negative emotions accumulated during life, especially in the areas of fear, lust, and control.

I discovered a Gate between this level of the Afterdeath Zone and another more advanced one. People can pass through this Gate only when entirely free of negative emotions.

On the other side of the Gate the dead go through a Deep Life Review. They consider every moment of their lives on Earth to see how their thoughts and actions did or did not correspond to the soul's master plan for their growth.

During this life review, they're completely closed in on themselves. But, when finished, they move on to an area of the Afterdeath Zone in which they study up on how to formulate their next lifetimes, choosing place and parents and the people they'll meet up with to complete certain tasks.

All of this material is presented in my first two books, Otherwhere: A Field Guide to Nonphysical Reality for the Out-of-Body Traveler and The Unanswered Question: Death, Near-Death, and the Afterlife.

I began reading Theosophy in 2005, about three years after the second of these books was published. The correspondences startled me.

I'd visited Kamaloka (the part of the Afterdeath Zone associated with purging negative emotions), the lower mental plane areas of the Afterdeath Zone (associated with turning inward to live through everything that wasn't realized while alive), and the upper mental plane areas, in which the Ego (in the Theosophical sense) is aware of all of one's past lives and plans the next lifetime accordingly.

There's also an area of rest that I discovered between publication of my last book and reading Theosophy. This area of rest exists at the end of the Deep Life Review Process and before planning the next lifetime. It's an area in which we end up with all those who share values similar to ours while alive.

The Guide who showed it to me said that it feels like Heaven--and it certainly sounds like Devachan. I would place it at the transition point between the lower and upper mental planes, perhaps the third subplane.

Here's a link to a description of this adventure on my website:

Visit to the Shared Values Zone

Perhaps one resolution to the disagreement you mention is that Devachan could be considered as having two stages, one in the lower, the other in the upper mental plane. But if someone is referring Devachan as true heavenly rest, it would have to be the latter.

The lower mental plane afterlife seems to be something like a purgatory for clearing out belief systems. So if you're looking at the Afterlife from that perspective, there's a Kamaloka for getting rid of negative emotions on the astral plane and a similar loka for getting rid of thoughts (anyone know the relevant Sanskrit?).

Thanks. It's good to have a boat to board. Now, onward to the Other Shore!

Kurt

HI Nick--

I should have mentioned that "the seven worlds, the worlds of rest eternal" is actually a quotation from The Voice of the Silence. From Fragment I:

Anybody know of commentaries on The Voice of the Silence, besides Leadbeater's?

Kurt

Kurt,

Sorry for taking so long to reply, but I have been having computer problems.

Your screen could not handle my chart? what resolution is your screen set at?

You said,

"I was largely familiar with the diagrams you posted, or at least the material they contained. I admit my questions pertain to obscure references to even more obscure subjects."

--> Yeah, I figured you were. All I could do was post what I had.

"The Seven Sounds," Leadbeater says that these sounds "Mark the attainment of the seven sub-planes of the buddhic plane" (121)."

--> Unfortunately, this too is getting into unfamiliar territory for me. Thanks for all the info on the seven sounds. That is a lot of info!

"I agree with you about the oddness of calling the busy nonphysical home of the masters a place of eternal rest."

--> The only thing I can think of is, The Higher Mental Plane is a place of rest for us, but a place of activity for those beings who actually reside there.

"...does anyone have a searchable CD-ROM of her works?"

--> I do. Let me find some time and search it.

"In my book I only refer to what I have direct experience of or what seems plausible on the basis of multiple sources, especially other non-theosophical astral projectors. Thus I can only comment here on what I know, and there's a lot of Blavatsky I don't know."

--> All I can do is suggest you keep asking questions, and I'l see what I can do. If it concerns Theosophy and Blavatsky, I am more than gald to get involved.

You and Christian have an advantage over the rest of us, because we cannot do psychic reaearch. Please keep sharing what you have.

"My astral adventures have taken me into what I call the Dream Zone and the Afterdeath Zone. I name each area of nonphysical reality I encounter after its function in order not to load it down with terminology and assumptions from other esoteric systems."

--> I do need to sit down and look at your charts.

"Perhaps one resolution to the disagreement you mention is that Devachan could be considered as having two stages, one in the lower, the other in the upper mental plane. But if someone is referring Devachan as true heavenly rest, it would have to be the latter."

--> I imagine that any newly-dead person who gets to "Upper" Devachan would first have to spend time in "Lower" Devachan. It makes sense to me.

"The lower mental plane afterlife seems to be something like a purgatory for clearing out belief systems. So if you're looking at the Afterlife from that perspective, there's a Kamaloka for getting rid of negative emotions on the astral plane and a similar loka for getting rid of thoughts (anyone know the relevant Sanskrit?)."

--> This makes sense to me. No doubt, we need to clean house mentally as well as emotionally, between each incarnation.

Hi Nick--

Getting back to me within 24 hours doesn't seem like taking too long to reply, especially considering the length of our messages to each other.

My screen has no trouble sizing normal replies so that I can read them. Also, in the context of your website, the charts come up fine. But in the post on this forum in which you included the charts, the left sidebar seems to be the problem, pushing the right edge of the charts off the screen (at least for me) by about 1/4 inch. There's no scroll bar to help me read the rest of the post.

My screen resolution is 800 x 600 on a 19 inch screen.

I've spent the past few days studying The Voice of the Silence and Leadbeater's commentary and may be able to answer my own question about the worlds of rest eternal based on internal evidence. But if you do find anything on the CD-ROM, let me know.

By the way, the three volumes of Besant and Leadbeater's Talks on the Path of Occultism are wonderful reads. The first volume deals with At the Feet of the Master, the second with The Voice of the Silence, and the third with Light on the Path. Each volume is 400 plus pages (in a smaller octavo format) and packed with interesting and useful information. For a long time they were not available in this country. But Quest Books has been selling them on their website at $27.50 for the whole set, a great bargain (if you click on the link, scroll down, there's a glitch in the page that makes it look as if nothing is coming up):
Talks on the Path of Occultism

If the terms apply to the occult, you could hardly get more bang for your buck.

Kurt

Kurt,

This Forum is maximized for 1024 x 768, so it would probably be difficult to read everything at a resolution of 800 x 600. Can you switch to 1024 x 768? You have a 19-inch monitor, so it seems quite a shame not to.

I am glad to hear you are studying Silence and Commentaries. Please share your impressions. It would be fascinating to hear how they are impacting you. What interesting quotes have you come across today in those books?

I have those three volumes on my bookshelf, waiting to be read. Unfortunately, I have other things that are waiting to be read too. I do Theosophical research everyday, so the books I read are directly related to my research. Right now I am reading The Divine Plan by Geoffrey Barborka.

The Divine Plan by Geoffrey Barborka

It is an advanced book, so some people might find it to be difficult reading, but I highly recommend it.

Wow, Quest Books has just re-done their website, and it loads a LOT slower. It looks like they really dropped the ball on this one. Some people think adding tons of javascript to their site improves it, when the opposite is actually true.

I have a book I would like to suggest that you write. How about doing some more psychic research, and compare each of the sub-planes with their descriptions by Blavatsky et all? This would be a great addition to Theosophical literature, and would give you an immediately-ready base of new readers. I suppose you know that the three Fundamental Propositions of Theosophy support such research, so it would be right up every Theosophist's alley. What do you think?

Hi Nick--

Evidently the site ate my last reply. Just wanted to tell you the new screen resolution solved the problem.

I responded to several things in your last reply. But I don't have time this morning to resurrect what I said--got to get to the book. Good luck with your research.

Kurt

Kurt,

I have had this problem on several Forums. I write a long and complicated post, only to have the software hiccup, and I lose the entire entry. I have learned through painful experience that I need to first write the post, be ready to save it in a word processing program like Windows' Notepad, and then send the post to the Forum. This has allowed me to write long posts, lose them, and immediately re-post them. Unfortunately, this happens a lot.

If you are using Windows, do you know about highlight, right-click, and Copy? This sends the selected text to the Clipboard. The selected text is then immediately available to be re-pasted. What I usually do is, write a post, then highlight, right-click, and Copy it into memory. I attempt to post the post. If it is successfull, I do not need to do anything else. Is it is unsuccessful, I then right-lick and Copy the text into Notepad. This saves a lot of work, and lost posts!

I have also found that losing posts can be an indication of a virus on a computer. You may need to do a full virus-diagnostic on your computer, which means doing a lot more than just using Norton, or some other anti-virus software. (I am Microsoft-certified, I am very computer-friendly, and I have a lot of advice to give regarding viruses on Windows machines.)

I am glad you got the new screen resolution working! It is a shame to use 800 x 600 and waste the extra ability of your monitor.

What new things have you added to your book today?

Hi Nick--

I've had this experience on other forums too. I did actually save the post to the clipboard, as you mentioned, when I first started having problems.

Unfortunately, I was posting late at night. So, once it seemed to go through, I didn't check to make sure before turning off my computer and lost what was in the clipboard.

It wasn't a long post. I can probably resurrect it in pieces. For example, you asked:

I posted this one, from Besant and Leadbeater, Talks on the Path of Occultism, vol. 2, 332:

Leadbeater is speaking about buddhic (intuitional) and nirvanic (spiritual) consciousness. It's fun to imagine what that's like: e.g., a master walking somewhere on the planet and leaving a huge wake of stunned thought-forms behind him.

It reminds me of a story told about Sri Ramakrishna. He was walking in the gardens of the temple complex where he lived and came across some ghosts. The ghosts asked him to leave because he was so pure that he was hurting them.

This is actually what I'm doing, although I'm going easy on some of the more technical theosophical, Sanskrit and Pali vocabulary. The idea is to link up the theosophical descriptions of nonphysical reality and the energy bodies with those of various explorers of astral projection and out-of-body states, such as Robert Monroe (Journeys Out of the Body, William Buhlman (Adventures Beyond the Body), Christopher Bache (who may have gotten as high as the monadic--anupadaka--plane through using Holotropic Breathwork, as described in Dark Night,Early Dawn and even Emanuel Swedenborg, whose Heaven and Hell , despite the Christian overtones, is one of the only books I've come across that demonstrates any understanding of how communication occurs in nonphysical reality.

The whole book is based on Blavatsky's definition of plane in The Occult Glossary:

What this means is that a plane is a state of consciousness. If we find the corresponding state of consciousness, we're on that plane.

To perceive what's on that plane, we need particular inner senses. These senses are part of the equipment of the energy body (etheric, astral, mental, causal, buddhic, nirvanic, etc.) that corresponds to that plane.

The "particular force" is the outpouring of the Logos that creates a plane, to whatever degree it has been dimensionally downsized to enable the steps in the processes of involution and evolution.

The "matter" is the elemental essence that creates anything perceivable on a plane, including our energy body on that plane.

It's amazing how much information is packed into those four short phrases.

My thesis is that if we develop the inner senses that allow us to perceive these planes here in physical reality, we're more likely to experience the states of consciousness that take us there. I've developed a number of exercises for this purpose.

The notion of the path, as described in Leadbeater and Besant, has also been helpful. It seems that the energy bodies and access to particular planes develop in stages and that various spiritual practices accelerate passage through these stages. I've been mining their books for hints along these lines.

My book is designed to lead people through an etheric body awakening, an astral body and mental body apprenticeship, to causal body mastery, and to tabulate what's known about the higher planes so that anyone who might get that far will have a few signposts to guide them.

Obviously, I got my writing on the book done this morning. Otherwise I wouldn't have come back. This post is more detailed than the one I lost, so it's probably just as well that the earlier one disappeared. I'll share the work I'm doing on figuring out the subplanes of the nirvanic plane in a later post.

What are you up to with your Barbaroka research?

Kurt

Kurt,

You quoted,

“We often talk of fighting earthly thoughts and feelings.”

--> Ah, earthly desires! I am afraid I am still at a stage where creature comforts are still too necessary for me!

“ The rates of vibration of the respective bodies are so tremendous that the lower thought-forms are knocked aside and cannot penetrate.”

--> Yes, I can see how Earthly things are of a lower frequency, and things of Devachan are at a higher frequency. It only makes sense that many aspects of our Earthly stay cannot be taken to Devachan.

“Leadbeater is speaking about buddhic (intuitional) and nirvanic (spiritual) consciousness. It's fun to imagine what that's like: e.g., a master walking somewhere on the planet and leaving a huge wake of stunned thought-forms behind him.”

--> You have done psychic research, which means visiting various sub-planes. What is the highest level you have visited? Is there a higher level you could visit, if you made the effort?

“It reminds me of a story told about Sri Ramakrishna. He was walking in the gardens of the temple complex where he lived and came across some ghosts. The ghosts asked him to leave because he was so pure that he was hurting them.”

--> It sounds like it could be a true story. The sub-planes are an area of study that all of us find fascinating.

“This is actually what I'm doing, although I'm going easy on some of the more technical theosophical, Sanskrit and Pali vocabulary.”

--> Have you thought of having your books listed on Theosophical sites that sell books? This does bring up a dilemma: The more you make a book look “Theosophical”, the more you restrict the audience it appeals to.

This also brings up the topic called the “dumbing-down of Theosophy”. This is a big issue with me. If you were asking for advice (which you are not….), I would say go ahead and put in all of the advanced vocabulary, and then explain the vocabulary in footnotes or whatever. I am presently writing a book on the Stanzas of Dzyan, and this is the approach I am taking.

“The idea is to link up the theosophical descriptions of nonphysical reality and the energy bodies with those of various explorers of astral projection and out-of-body states….”

--> I am looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

“The whole book is based on Blavatsky's definition of plane in The Occult Glossary:”

--> Have you come up with Blavatskian names for the Planes? I have never seen Blavatsky actually use the names Adi, Anupapadaka, etc.

“As used in occultism, the term denotes the range or extent of some state of consciousness….”

--> Have you done any research on atoms of the different Planes?

“ If we find the corresponding state of consciousness, we're on that plane.”

--> Does this equate with the idea Nirvana is a state of mind and not a location? (I tend to think of Nirvana as a “place”.)

“The "particular force" is the outpouring of the Logos that creates a plane, to whatever degree it has been dimensionally downsized to enable the steps in the processes of involution and evolution.”

--> It is like each Plane is a transformer that steps down the voltage of the Plane above it. I like that.

“My thesis is that if we develop the inner senses that allow us to perceive these planes here in physical reality, we're more likely to experience the states of consciousness that take us there. I've developed a number of exercises for this purpose.”

--> I will curious to see what you come up with.

“… various spiritual practices accelerate passage through these stages. I've been mining their books for hints along these lines.”

--> Have you had any contact with Mahatmas on those levels that can provide information?

“My book is designed to lead people through an etheric body awakening, an astral body and mental body apprenticeship, to causal body mastery, and to tabulate what's known about the higher planes so that anyone who might get that far will have a few signposts to guide them.”

--> …and it sounds like a very Theosophical effort at that.

“I'll share the work I'm doing on figuring out the subplanes of the nirvanic plane in a later post.”

--> I’ll be waiting for your results.

~~~

Now it is time to address the Theosophical criticisms that always follows such kind of psychic research. Some people say pursuing psychic research is dangerous. They also say a certain minimum amount of psychic maturity is required to try psychic experimentation, and people without the minimum psychic maturity are going to get into trouble. They also say people who open up to psychic influences are also opening themselves up to being influenced by negative spirits. They also say such research leads people away from the real task at hand, which is removing the fetters that prevent us from taking Initiations. How do you respond to such questions?

“What are you up to with your Barbaroka research?”

--> I just finished the part as to whether Jesus really existed. (Apparently he did not, or so HPB and Barborka seem to say.) I am thinking of opening a thread on this topic.

Hi Nick--

I've been hanging out at the boundary between the upper mental plane and the buddhic plane, mastering the causal body and preparing myself for a higher level of vibration on the buddhic. My first causal body adventures began about six years ago and my first exposure to the buddhic plane occurred about a year ago.

This process is not guided by effort. When the folks in charge decide I'm ready for the next stage, they set up the conditions and I do what I can to show up and understand. Theosophy has made showing up and understanding a whole lot easier.

The online theosophical community is new to me. I've only been studying this stuff for about a year and a half. My first two astral projection books, Otherwhere and The Unanswered Question were not theosophical.

Music and the Soul: A Listener's Guide to Transcendent Musical Experiences uses Cyril Scott's Music: Its Secret Influence throughout the Ages as a starting point. Scott was a theosophist and wrote a lot about deva music and buddhic music. From his verbal descriptions of such music I tried to deduce what he meant. I mention Leadbeater and Besant briefly, since they did some work on thought-forms created in conjunction with music.

The present book, however, is steeped in Theosophy.

My publisher, Hampton Roads, probably wouldn't go for this approach. I'm still waiting to hear from them about whether they want the book or not. Quest books responded favorably to my proposal, but they wanted me to shorten the book quite a bit. Unfortunately, when a publisher saddles you with a length constraint for commercial purposes, anything that requires a lot of explanation tends to get cut.

No, she seems to interpret the planes in terms of the seven principles. I think the planes and their names, as we know them now, are traceable to Besant and Leadbeater.

I understand the concept, but it doesn't correspond to anything I've experienced or been taught during my astral projection adventures. I haven't really investigated the "physics" of nonphysical reality to that degree.

It's both. The nirvanic plane is a place, but it's possible to visit it only by achieving the appropriate state of consciousness. The same thing is true of the other planes.

I categorize the beings I encounter when projecting according to their function. The next grade of evolution beyond physically incarnated humans appears to be a being whose primary function is service to the living and the dead. I call such beings Facilitators. They seem to correspond to what Leadbeater calls invisible helpers. or pupils. There are many kinds and I often encounter them. They act as Guides, explaining what I perceive. Because most of my work is done on the mental plane, they can't lie or misrepresent themselves. I can misunderstand or mistranslate what they communicate to me, though. It takes many hours to write down one of my adventures as I constantly try to find words that represent my experiences and what I've been told as faithfully as possible.

The highest beings I've encountered I call Overseers. They're in charge of the development of the planet, and probably correspond to what Leadbeater calls the Occult Hierarchy. This hierarchy is made up of Mahatmas, so it's possible that I've been in contact with such adepts.

I've encountered Overseers less frequently than Facilitators. I don't know any of them by name, but I can recognize them--individually, and as a class--by unique energy signatures perceived with my inner senses. Such signatures aren't translatable into names. None have identified themselves as the masters familiar to theosophists.

I spent a year as a member of a forum on astral projection, out-of-body experiences and lucid dreams. Most of the contributors were people aged 18-35 who have read the available books on these subjects and were experimenting to see whether they could replicate these states themselves.

The books often take a quasi-scientific, or at least objective, approach to the subject, avoiding overtly spiritual references. They provide recipes, and the forum passes these recipes along and discusses them in an effort to see what works.

I kept seeing the same frustrations come up again and again. People would get out of body a few times and hit a wall. Progress was halted, they knew not why.

The problem was that the books don't explain how to develop their inner senses, which are necessary for developing the energy bodies and accessing planes beyond the physical. The inner senses naturally unfold for anyone on a spiritual path. That spiritual path is outlined in theosophical books, but this younger generation is largely ignorant of these books. Also, the books' vocabulary seems obscure or unappealing.

For example, purity is a hard sell these days. But what purity leads to is something I call flexibility of consciousness, which is eminently desirable, and can be developed by means of the same spiritual practices that go into purification.

So, the subtitle of my book is Astral Projection as a Spiritual Practice to help people create the link between what they're doing, based on the recipe books, and what they need to do to progress beyond a certain point. I'm inviting them to join the Path, which leads to the Initiations.

Some of the folks on that forum had developed astral vision and were scared by what they saw, interpreting every unknown being as a negative entity. There are websites that foster a paranoid mentality based on incompletely perceived conditions on the astral plane. People wouldn't listen to me when I tried to point out the ways in which they were damaging their potential for progress with the assumptions they were making about what they were perceiving. All the problems they were encountering, and all of the ways through them, are in Powell's books, based on Leadbeater and Besant. I could have directed them to those books, but they wouldn't have understood them. So I'm trying to translate these old ideas into a vocabulary that they might respond to.

You can see that my intention is not to encourage people to develop psychic abilities in any irresponsible way. I'm hoping to apply theosophical principles as
a potential corrective to all the misplaced energy and enthusiasm, and often considerable, but unguided talent, I saw on that forum.

The question of danger, however, remains to be answered. I believe that psychic abilities are naturally human, the result of learning how to operate our inner senses. We go only as far as we can go without fear. There's a lot to be integrated in this learning process, so, yes, maturity helps.

The main danger is obsession with developing such abilities, which can create ungroundedness and mental imbalance. If you can't proceed in a grounded fashion, you'll be automatically limited by the nature of the path itself. The same thing is true of people who try to gain occult power over others. Such temptations are tests on the path, winnowing out those who are potentially dangerous.

The subject of negative entities is huge. Most are simply thought forms. People get scared of them because their inner senses aren't functioning properly. They make all sorts of unwarranted assumptions about what they perceive. If it scares them enough to stop projecting, they've failed one of the tests.

The main test for most of us is developing the inner sense that allows us to perceive the true energetic function of any being or plane we encounter beneath all appearances or assumptions we might make about it.

There's also some channeled material in Seth Speaks on the subject. I'm more familiar with the Seth material, in many respects, than Theosophy.

By the way, I neglected to mention in my previous post that I use Firefox and regularly check my computer for viruses using Trend-Micro's Housecall. So I think I'm clean there.

I probably won't have time over the next several days for anything more than brief replies. Even theosophists have to socialize sometimes.

Kurt

Kurt,

You said,

“I've been hanging out at the boundary between the upper mental plane and the buddhic plane….”

--> If you write a book about your experiences on each sub-plane, I think it would be very favorably received. Describe conditions there, the people, what they are doing, etc.

“…mastering the causal body and preparing myself for a higher level of vibration on the buddhic.”

--> I remember Leadbeater or someone saying that as soon as we achieve consciousness on the Buddhic Plane, our Causal Body (the same causal body we have had for centuries) disappears. Did this happen to you?

“This process is not guided by effort. When the folks in charge decide I'm ready for the next stage….”

--> This gets into the whole topic of the Hierarchy. Are you an Initiated member of the Hierarchy? Do you have a direct Guru or Mahatma as your Master?

“Quest books responded favorably to my proposal, but they wanted me to shorten the book quite a bit.”

--> Really? I would also like to publish a book with Quest someday. What length book did they say they want?

“I haven't really investigated the "physics" of nonphysical reality to that degree.”

--> OK, I was just curious. I have heard that one single physical atom is made up of hundreds of astral atoms, one astral atom is made up of hundreds of mental atoms, etc. I was just hoping for confirmation.

“ The nirvanic plane is a place, but it's possible to visit it only by achieving the appropriate state of consciousness. The same thing is true of the other planes.”

--> This is exactly what I believe, and this is exactly what some Theosophical writers have described. This is also a bug-a-boo between Buddhists and Theosophists, because Buddhists love to describe Nirvana as a state of mind and not a place. Thanks for that verification.

“ The next grade of evolution beyond physically incarnated humans appears to be a being whose primary function is service to the living and the dead.”

--> This makes a lot of sense to me.

“ It takes many hours to write down one of my adventures as I constantly try to find words that represent my experiences and what I've been told as faithfully as possible.”

--> Wow, I am looking forward to reading about your exploits.

“The highest beings I've encountered I call Overseers. They're in charge of the development of the planet, and probably correspond to what Leadbeater calls the Occult Hierarchy.”

--> Actually, Leadbeater would say that everyone from the First Initiation up is part of the Hierarchy. But I think it would be fascinating to actually make contact with a Planetary Manu.

“ None have identified themselves as the masters familiar to theosophists.”

--> Would they be willing to identify themselves by titles such as Planetary Manu, Round Manu, etc.?

“I kept seeing the same frustrations come up again and again. People would get out of body a few times and hit a wall. Progress was halted, they knew not why.”

--> This is why some Theosophists say we should not be doing such things unless we are being guided by a Mahatma.

“The inner senses naturally unfold for anyone on a spiritual path.”

--> Again, this begs the question: Is a Guide necessary?

“For example, purity is a hard sell these days.”

--> I suppose by purity you mean giving up things like alcohol, drugs and sex? I have heard that a person cannot have sex and make progress like you are describing. Is it true?

“I'm inviting them to join the Path, which leads to the Initiations.”

--> This is the very goal of Theosophy!

“Some of the folks on that forum had developed astral vision and were scared by what they saw, interpreting every unknown being as a negative entity.”

--> This is why the idea of doing this without a Guide seems like a real bad idea.

“All the problems they were encountering, and all of the ways through them, are in Powell's books, based on Leadbeater and Besant.”

--> I am glad to hear of this validation of Theosophical teachings, although it seems to be one that causes sadness.

“I'm trying to translate these old ideas into a vocabulary that they might respond to.”

--> This sounds like a very commendable Theosophical activity.

“I'm hoping to apply theosophical principles as a potential corrective to all the misplaced energy and enthusiasm, and often considerable, but unguided talent, I saw on that forum.”

--> Again, the main problem seems to a lack of a Guide.

“The main danger is obsession with developing such abilities, which can create ungroundedness and mental imbalance.”

--> That right there makes me think the whole idea of unguided astral travel is dangerous.

“Such temptations are tests on the path, winnowing out those who are potentially dangerous.”

--> My, but that sounds yucky.

“The subject of negative entities is huge. Most are simply thought forms. People get scared of them because their inner senses aren't functioning properly.”

--> More and more, it sounds like a Guide is absolutely essential.

“I probably won't have time over the next several days for anything more than brief replies. Even theosophists have to socialize sometimes.”

--> Be glad you have someone to socialize with! Man, I am stuck way out here in the boonies, and there ain’t nothin’ going on out here.

Hi Nick--

Yes, that's the idea.

Yes, Leadbeater does say that, I believe in The Inner Life. A few months ago I caught a glimpse of the body I'm traveling in by shifting my consciousness momentarily into a being who was observing me--a Gatekeeper who was guarding the entrance to a Library Of Human Knowledge on the lower mental plane. The causal body was the sphere, and within it the buddhic body was forming. I was losing my human form, turning into a purple five-pointed star made of electricity, with the points where my head and limbs would have been. The whole thing resembled a plasma sphere. I don't know if I'm losing my causal body forever. No one was there to explain what I was seeing.

Last year I was tested to see whether I could get to the buddhic plane on my own. I passed the test and a month later some kind of initiation occurred. A nonphysical spiritual teacher entered me, saying "Let me show you how to do this," and did a rather thorough rearrangement of my internal wiring, plugging things in that weren't plugged in, unplugging things that should not have been plugged in, and shifting some wires and plugs. I felt a huge buddha-like shape overshadowing me that I think was the monad trying to get my causal body to take the same shape. I experienced a bliss state that lasted for several weeks. The whole thing was very gentle and undramatic. I don't know whether this would be classified as a major initiation. But this inner spiritual teacher is now always with me.

The guidelines are on their website.

Quest Books Sumission Guidelines

That's all I have time for this morning.

Kurt

Hi Nick--

This is to round out my reply to your last post.

The language of nonphysical reality is feel/think, a kind of telepathy based on the feeling of thought, where thought is understood to be a vibration that can be picked up by the inner senses. Abstract thought doesn't carry well in feel/think. Words There has to be some feeling content. Words are merely a representation of how energy is exchanged. The closest thing I've found in Theosophy to feel/think is the color languge of the Devas that Leadbeater mentions. I've been told that the energy of love is the carrier of feel/think.

So it's doubtful that a high being encountered over there would identify itself as a Planetary Manu for several reasons. First, this being would not use these words, since words aren't a part of feel/think. Second, the idea of a Planetary Manu is an abstraction--there's no feeling content. Third, the being might fulfill a function similar to that of Planetary Manu, and I might be able to pick up on the function with my inner senses, but I might translate it in a different way when I try to find words for the communication and never recognize the connection.

Making links between what I experience and any other system, including Theosophy, requires on my part a fair amount of confidence that the feeling of the function I experience in nonphysical reality is the same as that hinted at by an expression like Planetary Manu.

For example, several years after my uncle died, I visited him in what I call a Reincarnational Screening Room. He was being shown certain details of his next lifetime and how they related to his behavior in his previous life. I classified the being who was showing and explaining all this to him as a Facilitator because its function seemed to be service. But the being was not of the same stature (height) as other Facilitators I encountered, an indication that it might not have been a highly evolved human, like most of the other Facilitators I've met. Only after reading in Theosophy did I realize that the being was probably one of the Devas in charge of helping us set up the conditions of a new lifetime. I don't think that this being was one of the Devarajas or Lipika that Blavatsky writes about, but exists within the Deva hierarchy that works for them.

Guides are essential. The first thing we need to do is wake up on the astral plane. Guides called Personal Trainers (a kind of Facilitator) then take notice and begin working with us. If we show a lot of talent and motivation, we begin training in an astral apprenticeship program. All of this takes place at night while we sleep. Keeping a daily dream journal and working on remembering our dreams is all that's required.

I like an occasional glass of wine or beer. But I've noticed as I've progressed that my interest in such things diminishes. It's not like I have to force myself to give them up. The same thing happened with eating meat.

I've never done drugs. I think they damage the physical body in ways that make spiritual progress harder, and have negative effects on the energy bodies as well.

If sex is an obsession, it would probably prevent spiritual progress beyond a certain point. The basis of astral projection as a spiritual practice is something my guide Charles calls the master intention: Let everything be done in service, for the greater good of all, as an expression of life purpose, and getting closer to Source.

Think about how different sex would be if it were done in service, was mutually beneficial for both partners (for the greater good of all) and practiced as a way of getting closer to Source, as sacred sexuality. The boundaries of our identities would dissolve and we would merge at the energetic or soul level with our partners. That would be progress on the path.

I'm curious to know what you mean by sadness.

All spiritual paths warn against obsessively pursuing powers for their own sake. But if you are on a spiritual path and living withing guidelines like the master intention given above, you're less likely to get unbalanced. The phrase for the greater good of all includes you. If you're not taking proper care of yourself you can't get closer to Source.

I'm curious to know what you mean by yucky. All I wanted to put across was the people self-select to opt out of exploring these things whenever they encounter something that seems fearful. A guide can usually explain what we've experienced so that we understand it. Then it's possible to let go of fear. My experience is there's nothing to be afraid of over there but our own ignorance, which is huge, and the primary reason we react fearfully to anything unfamiliar. We're so used to being in physical reality that it's like we're addicted to it. Anything nonphysical is a complete unknown, therefore scary. I try to explain what I know so that people might feel more comfortable with undertaking their own explorations.

All the more reason to learn astral travel. The friends you make in nonphysical reality are a lot more trustworthy, loving, dependable than most people on this side. It's not a party over there, but definitely an adventure!

Kurt

Kurt,

You said,

“I don't know if I'm losing my causal body forever.”

--> It sounds like your experience is different than what Leadbeater described. According to Leadbeater, as soon as we lift our consciousness up to the Buddhic Level, the Causal Body disappears in a flash, and is gone forever, until we create another Causal Body. (And, according to Leadbeater, we are under no compulsion to creae antoher Causal Body.)

“…a Gatekeeper who was guarding the entrance to a Library Of Human Knowledge on the lower mental plane."

--> Such a Library sounds fascinating. Feel free to share any more information you may have on it.

“The causal body was the sphere, and within it the buddhic body was forming.”

--> Wow, that would be cool to watch one’s own Buddhic Body being formed.

“Do you have a direct Guru or Mahatma as your Master? --> A nonphysical spiritual teacher entered me, saying "Let me show you how to do this,"….”

--> That sounds quite different than an Initiation. An Initiation sounds more like being formally accepted as someone’s student, making some kinds of pledges, etc. It sounds like someone was just helping you out.

“But this inner spiritual teacher is now always with me.”

--> That must be quite a change for you.

“Quest Books Sumission Guidelines”

--> Yes, I have seen that submissions guidelines page before. But you said you had the “scoop” on when a book is too long. That would be good to know. How short did Quest tell you to make your book?

“Abstract thought doesn't carry well in feel/think.”

--> It seems to me there must be a higher level where abstract thoughts can be exchanged. It also seems to me there must be a higher level where feelings become impossible.

“Second, the idea of a Planetary Manu is an abstraction--there's no feeling content.”

--> I find this puzzling, because Theosophy teaches that specific Beings take on specific Offices such as Round Manu, Manvantara Manu, etc.

“… the being might fulfill a function similar to that of Planetary Manu, and I might be able to pick up on the function with my inner senses, but I might translate it in a different way when I try to find words for the communication and never recognize the connection.”

--> Oh, OK, He might be a Planetary Manu, but that does not mean He would necessarily be willing to tell you about it.

“Making links between what I experience and any other system, including Theosophy, requires on my part a fair amount of confidence that the feeling of the function I experience in nonphysical reality is the same as that hinted at by an expression like Planetary Manu.”

--> And, then, there is the problem of being unable to describe things on, for example, the Buddhic Plane. This is a problem many people have spoken about.

“For example, several years after my uncle died, I visited him in what I call a Reincarnational Screening Room…. I don't think that this being was one of the Devarajas or Lipika that Blavatsky writes about, but exists within the Deva hierarchy that works for them.”

--> Deva sounds right. I certainly do not think it was a Lipika.

“Guides are essential. The first thing we need to do is wake up on the astral plane. Guides called Personal Trainers (a kind of Facilitator) then take notice and begin working with us.”

--> I think most people want to find a Guide before waking up on the Astral Plane. I guess you are saying this is not necessary.

“Keeping a daily dream journal and working on remembering our dreams is all that's required.”

--> I have heard this before. Perhaps this is why you are saying finding a Guide before working on the Astral Plane is not necessary.

“It's not like I have to force myself to give [alcohol, etc] up."

--> Yes, there seems to be a natural tendency to move away from such things, once a person enters the Path.

“The basis of astral projection as a spiritual practice is something my guide Charles calls the master intention: Let everything be done in service, for the greater good of all, as an expression of life purpose, and getting closer to Source.”

--> That is a good rule of thumb that I have heard before.

"I am glad to hear of this validation of Theosophical teachings, although it seems to be one that causes sadness. --> I'm curious to know what you mean by sadness.”

--> I have heard that people who do astral travel for the first time are sometimes scared by what they see. It is these scary experiences I am referring to.

“My, but that sounds yucky. --> I'm curious to know what you mean by yucky.”

--> I was just referring to the idea of dealing with temptations on the Astral Level, and the possibility of being “winnowed out”. These two things sound like unpleasant experiences.

“All I wanted to put across was the people self-select to opt out of exploring these things whenever they encounter something that seems fearful.”

--> That is good advice.

“My experience is there's nothing to be afraid of over there but our own ignorance, which is huge, and the primary reason we react fearfully to anything unfamiliar.”

--> So, for us non astral-travelers, the initial astral traveling sounds daunting.

“We're so used to being in physical reality that it's like we're addicted to it. Anything nonphysical is a complete unknown, therefore scary. I try to explain what I know so that people might feel more comfortable with undertaking their own explorations.”

--> I suppose the first step is becoming aware of astral travel by remembering dreams, etc. like you suggested.

“All the more reason to learn astral travel.”

--> For us non astral-travelers, taking the first step looks like a big challenge. I am an airplane pilot, and sure, flying an airplane is easy for me, but you probably see it as a big challenge.

Hi Nick--

Not longer than 300 double-spaced pages.

What I was trying to say is that feel/think is nonconceptual. I didn't meant emotion when I said feeling. The information is exchanged via subtle changes in vibrations, first picked up by feeling them.

The vibrational content of something you know to be true is stronger than speculation. A lot of our abstract thought is speculative and therefore isn't easily heard when we attempt to communicate it in feel/think. Thus we astral travelers often have experiences when we ask what appear to be reasonable questions and our Guides don't seem to hear us.

They don't wear name tags. These terms are translations made by Blavatsky from energetic idents picked up in feel/think. The terms can be translated in a variety of ways. It takes a while to sense through the function aspect of any being's ident to know for certain that what she picked up and what I picked up actually match.

If you were to encounter such a being in a projection experience, you might not recognize it. You have a concept of what its title means, and that can stand in the way of getting an inner sense reading on its function. An ident conveys way more information than a label, so it's possible that your concept of the function of such a being may represent but a small percentage of its actual function.

The function of any being in nonphysical reality can be read by the inner senses. There's a much greater chance that our inner senses aren't developed enough to read their idents properly than that they would withhold such information. My experience is that the beings I encounter are always willing to explain anything I ask about. I just haven't asked about theosophical terms like Manu, which are still new to me.

Nonphysical guides can only contact us when our inner senses are activated. Most of the time were too doped up on the intensity of physical experience to pick up on them. But meditation would be a good way of developing contact. The ideal form of such meditation would involve equal parts quieting the mind and developing the inner senses.

If you dream you've been astral traveling. It's the becoming conscious part that's hard, what Leadbeater and Besant describe as mastering the astral vehicle. You begin by paying attention to your dreams, then you end up becoming more awake and aware on the astral plane, more able to direct your activities there consciously.

What most people think of as astral travel is getting out of body here in physical reality. That can take two forms, using the etheric body or the astral body on the physical plane.

The etheric body is limited in range to 10-20 feet from the physical body and ends up generating a lot of frustration for the people on the discussion forums who encounter it. They think they're in the astral body and don't know why it's so limited. It's like astral projection training wheels. You have to be able to look back at your body on the bed and not freak out because you think you've died.

Travel in the astral body on the physical plane is more challenging because of unfamiliar sense impressions as the inner senses come alive. These senses often reveal things we were previously unaware of that can seem frightening until we understand them. A Guide helps, but isn't essential. My guides were pretty hands off with me for my first ten years.

Robert Monroe, a pioneer in the field of astral travel, was also an airplane pilot. His theory was that people who fly airplanes are trying to recapture the experience of astral flight in physical reality.

Kurt

May i interrupt for a moment..
By astral travel- do you mean "lucid dreams"?

Hi Mar--

In my experience, a lucid dream may precede astral travel. Having lucid dreams is often an indication of at least the early stages of becoming aware on the astral plane. They're a gateway to astral travel, but most people don't take them far enough.

Kurt

Do you have lucid dreams whenever you want? every night?

It happend to me twice- i think it's called lucid dreams.

And i've got one question-
... Dreams are "so real"...

It happened many times (when i woke up) that i remember dreams, and it was some "things" in them that should make me realize that something is different, but ..it didn't happen.

How to train that- "realize that i am dreaming" moment

and-
What is the difference between them? (astral travel, lucid dreams)

Mar,

Many of our dreams are merely memories of astral travel that we do while we are asleep. (I suppose a remembered-astral-trip that we have while we are asleep is a "lucid dream", although I am not sure about that.) Unfortunately, bringing the astral memory back into the denser, heavier physical brain when we awake causes the memory to get "messed up". Here are a couple of such accounts from one of Leadbeater's books:

~~~

"I remember a case of a member of our band who was deputed to [astrally] assist the victim of an explosion. He was warned a few minutes beforehand, and had time enough to make an effort to calm and steady the man’s mind, and then immediately after the outburst had taken place he was still on hand to continue the same process; but in the morning, when he described the event to me, he declared that it seemed exactly as though he himself had been the victim of the explosion. He had identified himself so closely with his patient that he felt the shock and the sensation of flying upwards exactly as, we must presume, the victim felt them. In another case the same member was called upon to assist a soldier who was driving an ammunition waggon down an execrable mountain road, and was thrown off and killed by the wheels passing over his body. In this case also our member entirely identified himself with the soldier, and his memory of the event was that he had dreamed of driving such a waggon and being thrown from it and killed, just as the real driver had been.

"In other cases what is remembered is not at all what really happened, but rather a sort of symbolic description of it, sometimes quite elaborate and poetical. This comes evidently from the image-making characteristic of the ego — his faculty of instantaneous dramatisation — and it sometimes happens that the symbol is recollected without its key; it comes through untranslated, as it were, so that unless the helper has a more experienced friend at hand to explain matters, he may have only a vague idea of what he has really done. A good instance of this came before my notice many years ago — so many that, as I made no record of it at the time; I am not now quite certain of one or two of its points, and am therefore obliged to omit some of it, and make it a little less interesting than I think it really was.

"The helper came to me one morning to relate an exceedingly vivid dream which he felt sure was in reality something more than a dream. He remembered having seen a certain young lady drowning in the sea. I believe that he had the impression that she had been intentionally thrown in, though I do not think that he had any vision of the person who was supposed to have done this. He himself could not directly assist her, as he was present only in the astral body, and did not know how to materialise himself; but his keen sense of the imminence of the peril gave him strength to impress the idea of danger upon the young lady's lover, and to bring him to the scene, when he at once plunged in and brought her ashore, delivering her into the arms of her father. The helper remembered the faces of all these three characters quite clearly, and was able so to describe them that they were afterwards readily recognisable. The helper begged me to look into this case, so that he might know how far his clear remembrance was reliable.

"On doing so, I found to my surprise that the whole story was symbolic, and that the facts which had really occurred were of a different nature. The young lady was motherless, and lived practically alone with her father. She seems to have been rich as well as beautiful, and no doubt there were various aspirants to her hand. Our story, however, has to do only with two of these; one, a most estimable but bashful young fellow of the neighborhood, who had adored her since childhood, had grown up in friendly relations with her, and had in fact the usual half-understood, half-implied engagement which belongs to a boy-and-girl love affair. The other was a person distinctly of the adventurer type, handsome and dashing and captivating on the surface, but in reality a fortune-hunter of false and unreliable type. She was dazzled by his superficial brilliancy, and easily persuaded herself that her attraction for him was real affection, and that her previous feelings of comradeship for her boy friend amounted to nothing.

"Her father, however, was much more clear-sighted than she, and when the adventurer was presented to him he seems to have received him with marked coolness, and declined altogether, though kindly enough, to sanction his daughter’s marriage with a gentleman of whom he knew nothing. This was a great blow to the young lady, and the adventurer, meeting her in secret, easily persuaded her that she was a terribly ill-used and misunderstood person, that her father was quite unbearably tyrannical and ridiculously old-fashioned, that the only thing left for her to do as a girl of spirit was to show that she meant what she said by eloping with him (the aforesaid adventurer) after which of course the father would come round to a more sensible view of life, and the future would take on the rosiest of hues.

"The foolish girl believed him, and he gradually worked upon her feelings until she consented; and the particular night upon which our friend the helper came upon the scene was that which had been chosen for the elopement. In true melodramatic style the adventurer was waiting round the corner with a carriage, and the girl was in her room hurriedly preparing herself to slip out and join him.

"Not unnaturally, when it came actually to the point her mind was much disturbed, and she found it very difficult to take the final step. It was this fluttering of the mind, this earnest desire for aid in decision, which attracted the notice of the helper as he was drifting casually by. Reading her thoughts, he quickly grasped the situation, and at once began to try to influence her against the rash step which she contemplated. Her mind, however, was in such a condition that he was unable to impress himself upon her as he wished, and he looked round in great anxiety for someone who should prove more amenable to his influence. He tried to seize upon the father, but he was engaged in his library in some literary work of so engrossing a character that it proved impossible to attract his attention.

"Fortunately, however, the half-forgotten lover of her youth happened to be within reach, wandering about in the starlight and looking up at her window in the approved style of young lovers all the world over. The helper pounced upon him, seeing the condition of his sentiments, and to his great delight found him more receptive. His deep love made him anxious, and it was easy enough to influence him to walk far enough to see the carriage and the adventurer in waiting around the corner. His affection quickened his wits, and he instantly grasped the situation, and was filled with horror and dismay. To do him justice, at that supreme moment it was not of himself that he thought, not that he was on the eve of losing her, but that she was on the eve of throwing herself away and ruining the whole of her future life. In his excitement he forgot all about convention; he made his way into the house (for he had known the place since childhood), rushed up the stairs and met her at the door of her room.

"The words which he said to her neither he nor she can remember now, but in wild and earnest pleading he besought her to think before doing this terrible thing, to realise clearly into what an abyss she was about to throw herself, to bethink herself well before entering upon the path of destruction, and at least, before doing anything more, to consult openly with the loving father whom she was requiting so ill for his ceaseless care of her.

"The shock of his sudden appearance and the fervor of his objurgations awakened her as from a sort of trance; and she offered scarcely any resistance when he dragged her off then and there to her father as he sat working in his library. The astonishment of the father may be imagined, when the story was unfolded before him. He had had not the slightest conception of his daughter's attitude, and she herself, now that the spell was shaken off, could not imagine how she had ever been able really to contemplate such a step. Both she and her father overflowed with gratitude to the loyal young lover, and before he left her that night she had ratified the old childish engagement, and promised to be his wife at no remote date."

(The Inner Life, pp. 267-270)
http://users.ez2.net/nick29/theosophy/il-257.htm#267

Kurt,

You have told us how you have visited the lowest level of the Buddhic Plane. Have you been to Hell — the lowest sub-planes of the Astral Plane? What is the lowest sub-plane you have visited?

“ Not longer than 300 single-spaced pages.

--> What size page? I would imagine not 8 ½ by 11? What size page do they want?

“I didn't meant emotion when I said feeling.”

--> It seems to be a fascinating distinction.

“Thus we astral travelers often have experiences when we ask what appear to be reasonable questions and our Guides don't seem to hear us.”

--> Wow, communicating on that level will be fascinating.

“ My experience is that the beings I encounter are always willing to explain anything I ask about. I just haven't asked about theosophical terms like Manu, which are still new to me.”

--> Again, it sounds like an area that would be fun to research.

“Nonphysical guides can only contact us when our inner senses are activated. Most of the time were too doped up on the intensity of physical experience to pick up on them. But meditation would be a good way of developing contact.”

--> This gets back to why Theosophy teaches that meditation is one of the most important activities we can do.

“The ideal form of such meditation would involve equal parts quieting the mind and developing the inner senses.”

--> Can you suggest more specific meditation techniques?

“The etheric body is limited in range to 10-20 feet from the physical body and ends up generating a lot of frustration for the people on the discussion forums who encounter it. They think they're in the astral body and don't know why it's so limited.”

--> Wow, I had not heard that before.

“Robert Monroe, a pioneer in the field of astral travel, was also an airplane pilot. His theory was that people who fly airplanes are trying to recapture the experience of astral flight in physical reality.”

--> I have noted to myself several times that, while flying, I have broken away from the bonds of Earth, at least for a small distance, and for a short time. It is always relaxing to spend a little time physically distanced from this “world of tears”, and I am lucky I can do it in an airplane almost everyday.

Hi Nick--

I had a client for many years who inadvertently committed suicide (cocaine interacting with prescription drugs). Over the course of a couple of years after he died I visited him four times in the Afterlife. One time was very like Leadbeater's description of the lowest (seventh) subplane of the astral plane.

Here's Powell referencing Leadbeater on the subject (The Astral Body, 146-47):

My client was in an area that I experienced exactly like this black viscous fluid, which was a manifestation of all the regrets he had died with. I thought I would suffocate. I had this experience maybe five years before I read the book I just quoted from.

My client was going through some kind of soul reclamation process, not unlike the material in Leadbeater on freeing oneself from the desire elemental. It wasn't hell as described in Christianity, as far as my client was concerned, but it was hellishly unpleasant for me--just as Powell writes, indescribably loathsome.

I described my four visits to this client in The Unanswered Question.

I made a mistake, I meant double-spaced pages. The page size should be normal 8 1/2 x 11, with 1 inch margins all around. I corrected the mistake on the original post.

There are some good ones in Basic Psychic Development by John Friedlander and Gloria Hemsher, excellent for developing the inner senses and increasing flexibility of consciousness. The book appears to be unavailable from amazon.com at present, but is often on the bookshelves of Borders and Barnes & Noble.

Some more advanced techniques from the same tradition (Lewis Bostwick, founder of the Berkeley Psychic Institute, can be found in Karla McLaren's Your Aura and Your Chakras: The Owner's Manual.

Your Aura and Your Chakras

I've got some in my book, too. But I shouldn't spread them around until it's published.

There are hints in Leadbeater. But a number of astral projection authors describe the problem and many people on the discussion boards experience it. My book may be the only place that fully explains what the problem is and what to do about it.

Wow, you fly almost every day? I can't say that I project every day. Sounds like you've got it good.

Kurt

Hi Mar--

Do you have lucid dreams whenever you want? every night?

Not every night. When I do have them, they usually lead to major projection experiences--maybe once or twice a month. It takes a while to digest and write them down, so I'm actually grateful it doesn't happen every night.

And i've got one question-
... Dreams are "so real"...

It happened many times (when i woke up) that i remember dreams, and it was some "things" in them that should make me realize that something is different, but ..it didn't happen.

How to train that- "realize that i am dreaming" moment

This is a definite problem. It results from our addiction to physical reality. We simply accept everything we experience here all the time as "real." So we carry that habit over into our dreams. Sometimes our dreams try to help us become lucid by becoming increasingly outrageous. But even then we just tend to accept them.

I don't use this technique myself, but I've heard it works. Just ask yourself a bunch of times during the day whether you're awake or dreaming and think about what makes you think that your experience is real. By getting into that habit, you may be more likely to do a similar "reality test" in a dream, realize that the dream is not real in the same sense that physical reality is, and become lucid.

and-
What is the difference between them? (astral travel, lucid dreams)

The important thing about a lucid dream is knowing that you're dreaming, which means you're now awake on the astral plane. Some people start playing around with the dream at this point, shaping its content any way they please, which can be fun.

Another alternative is to explore the reality you're in, notice everything you can about it. Or ask for a Guide to show up and explain things. It's good to keep in mind a list of things you'd like to do once you're lucid.

Most dreams take place in private areas of the astral plane, your own little Dream Zone. But there are public areas too. When you start observing the structures and beings present in these public areas, you're projecting on the astral plane.

Dreams of seminars, classes, theaters, film sets, movie cinema-plexes are often memories of astral travel to public areas of the dream zone. You can sometimes remember such dreams without having become lucid. They're good signs that some part of you is becoming awake and aware on the astral plane.

Astral projection can also involve traveling in the astral body on the physical plane, or to other planes described in Theosophy, such as the mental plane. This kind of travel is in some ways more advanced. But lucid dreaming is an excellent beginning point, and easier for many people than getting out of body.

Here's an interesting forum on astral projection, lucid dreams, and out-of-body experiences I used to visit pretty often. Nice folks, with lots of great suggestions. I know the moderator, who is a good guy. He recently created a DVD about having these experiences. There's also an interesting textbook on the site.

Forum on astral projection, lucid dreams, etc.

Hope this helps.

Kurt

Kurt,

You said,

"I had a client for many years who inadvertently committed suicide (cocaine interacting with prescription drugs). Over the course of a couple of years after he died I visited him four times in the Afterlife. One time was very like Leadbeater's description of the lowest (seventh) subplane of the astral plane."

--> Yes, a book of your visits to all the different sub-planes will be very interesting.

"My client was in an area that I experienced exactly like this black viscous fluid, which was a manifestation of all the regrets he had died with. I thought I would suffocate."

--> Yes, this is how Theosophy describes Hell. I am "glad" to see the description is accurate.

"My client was going through some kind of soul reclamation process, not unlike the material in Leadbeater on freeing oneself from the desire elemental."

--> One of the most important Theosophical teachings is that Hell is not eternal.

"It wasn't hell as described in Christianity, as far as my client was concerned, but it was hellishly unpleasant for me--just as Powell writes, indescribably loathsome."

--> I think that any Christian who dies and goes to the real Hell will be quite surprised.

“I described my four visits to this client in The Unanswered Question.”

--> I am looking forward to reading it.

“Can you suggest more specific meditation techniques?” --> “…I've got some in my book, too. But I shouldn't spread them around until it's published.”

--> Oh, perhaps posting a few here will motivate more people to buy your book.

“ My book may be the only place that fully explains what the problem is and what to do about it.”

--> Cool!

“Wow, you fly almost every day? I can't say that I project every day. Sounds like you've got it good.”

--> I am an airline pilot. (As I write this, I am sitting in the pilot lounge, waiting to fly to San Diego.) The good news is, it is someone else’s plane, and they pay for the fuel!

Hi everybody!

Since we are on the topic of Hell, I thought I would include a passage about a woman's trip through Hell as recorded in A. P. Sinnett's book, In the Next World.

http://users.ez2.net/nick29/theosophy/inw.htm#049

The Story of R. W.

"I now approach a very difficult task, that of describing the after-death experiences of a lady who was brought to talk to me in response to a wish on my part to get speech with someone whose story would be a feminine pendant to that of my friend H. S., a woman whose life had been in a pre-eminent degree colored by strong sexual passion. Let me again emphasise the idea that, exhaled within the limits of any reasonable, moderation, no bad karma whatever attaches to the exercise of natural functions, nor even to the intense enjoyment of these as associated with genuine love, of which indeed they are the almost inevitable expression on the physical plane of life. I might go even further than this if called upon to write an essay on the relations of the sexes, so grievously mismanaged under the influence of various delusive conventions, especially in this country. But some fundamental laws may be recognised in connection with all problems of this nature; firstly, that selfish pleasure, sought at the expense of incidental suffering to another, engenders bad karma of an unequivocal character, the effects of which will color the next physical life, while, independently of that, desires innocent in themselves, may be exaggerated in their intensity and allowed to dominate a whole life to such an extent that they are shed with very great difficulty on the astral plane after the death of the physical body. The process of shedding them may be so painful and protracted, as the story I have just been dealing with shows, that an account of it in any particular case reads like the description of a punishment; but that would not be a correct reading of it. The consequences of evil-doing on the physical plane, which have to be regarded, from one point of view, as its penalty, are worked out on the physical plane again in the next life. The intervening period is one the conditions of which ought to reflect the better side of the life just spent, rather than its worst. But for that better side to express itself the entity must not be weighed down by characteristics incompatible with existence on the higher levels of the astral world. It cannot get up to those higher levels till free of the characteristics which belong exclusively to the earth-life. That is how it comes to pass that the entity is entangled with thought-forms on the third level, in the way H. S. was entangled, till that group of desires has been worn out.

"I will go on now with the narrative I was enabled to obtain from the lady who, as I put it above, was a counterpart, on the feminine side, of my friend H. S.

"She remembered her death, which she struggled against. Felt herself pushed out of her body, and saw it die. Sank into a state of unconsciousness, and afterwards woke feeling very unhappy. She found herself surrounded by a dull red light, and saw male forms around in all directions. This sight roused the old desires with intensity. She rushed towards them, but they receded. I must leave a good deal here to the imagination of the reader. Fiercely craving for satisfaction, she found herself drawn into an eddy or swirl which drew her into the neighborhood of a soldier and girl in Hyde Park. She threw herself into the girl's aura. The girl had been somewhat reluctant, but now gave herself up to the man....

"Desire seemed to burn her like acid on the skin. I cannot follow the painful story in all details. She was fearfully tormented by thought-forms of a horrible character, the creation of her imagination during life. These at last provoked a feeling of abhorrence. She found herself alone in a rocky desert, utterly miserable. Eventually she was addressed by a tall black figure who told her she was in his charge, but that it rested with her to determine how long she would remain on these levels of misery. He asked, did she wish to escape from these tormenting desires? She could only gasp out an entreaty to him to “get her out of this.” He said: “It is well; follow me; the way is long, but if you obey you will find a path that will lead you away. As soon as I depart you will be again tormented by the personifications of your old desires. They will seem real; they will attempt to seduce you. Bear in mind that they cannot, if your desire for freedom remains.

"Hold fast to that.” Then she found herself surrounded by red flowers, red grass, red everything, and men were there saying “Come!” etc. But she resisted.

"Melan again appeared, saying, "It is well. Rest and recover!" Then he touched her forehead, and a wave of peace seemed to flow over her. Then she saw a lovely woman in white, who smiled on her and took her in her arms. She floated up, and attained some region of bliss; a lovely garden, where she was filled with a new sense of life and cleanliness.

"This must, of course, have been some level of the fourth sub-plane, and thither she now returns at will; but she has devoted herself to work on the lower planes, where she endeavors to help those whom she misled in life.

"I cannot ascertain exactly how long the suffering period lasted, but believe it must have been for several years of our time."

Mar,

The words "reality" and "realities" appear several times in that PDF file. Which "realities" are you referring to?

Hi Nick--

It has been very hot here in Boston. The inside of my non air-conditioned third floor apartment was 92 degrees with high humidity earlier this week, making it rather hard to think clearly. Hence the break on my side in communications. The heat wave broke last night and now it's in the mid 70s with low humidity inside and out. I've come to life again.

I love the idea of flying somewhere with a Theosophist as a pilot! It's funny, I guess because of the uniform I never look beyond a pilot's official role when I walk off the plane. The skies feel a little safer now, knowing that you're there. If you ever fly up to Boston, let me know. It would be fun to talk shop in person.

I just finished reading Sinnett's The Occult World (OW). He's such a stylist. I really enjoy his writing. Next up is Esoteric Buddhism (EB).

I've been filling in some blanks in my understanding of early Theosophy. It was interesting to read about the origins of the Sinnett Mahatma letters in OW.

I came across a reference to Devachan in EB that made it sound as if that was Blavatsky's name for the whole mental plane, since it included rupa and arupa subdivisions. You asked as while back whether I ever saw a list of Blavatsky's terms for the planes. Obviously, here is one item on that list.

Now, about In the Next World (NW). Do you have any idea what the original year of publication was? I recently read a biography of Leadbeater that said that when Sinnett stopped receiving Mahatma letters via Blavatsky, due to some kind of dispute, he attempted to stay in touch with the Mahatmas through Leadbeater. I was wondering whether the case histories in NW were generated clairvoyantly by Leadbeater.

I noticed on your site that Sinnett doesn't reveal his information source in the introductory material of the book. If NW was published before 1895, then it's a prequel to Leadbeater's The Astral Plane(AP). It's interesting to speculate that the general principles laid down in AP could have had their origins in specific case histories in NW.

This is actually a tricky question. I wouldn't mind doing so once I have a publication commitment for the book. Then it's good advance publicity. But copyright is a problem until that point. Still haven't heard anything from my publisher. It's a little nerve-wracking. They've had the manuscript for three months.

Bye for now.
Kurt

Hi Mar--

I think the forum website ate one of your posts. I got a message yesterday that you had posted something, but when I went to the forum, there was nothing there. Is there any chance you could redo that post?

Kurt

http://www.brainsturbator.com/pdf/DrRickSt...ritMolecule.pdf

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/members/ghancock.htm

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer...terlife&search=

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayahuasca

I put all my links here.
It's one of the topics i'm interested in, but maybe it would be better to talk about it in other forum; i thought it has to do with some "states" that Theosophy describes so i put it here.

Hi Mar--

I managed to check out the links you posted before you deleted the posts. Very interesting.

I have a client who has been to the Amazon many times for ayahuasca ceremonies. He finds them extremely beneficial. His first time was rough on his body, a lot of throwing up and some scary things to confront in his visions. After that, his visions often showed him ways to clear problems in his life, or provided a sense of connection to the natural world surrounding him in the jungle. He has frequent experiences of direct telepathic contact with the shaman who leads the ceremonies, even though they don't speak the same language.

I wasn't aware of the DMT research. Thanks for directing me toward it.

From what I read, it seems that DMT takes the focus of people's consciousness more or less directly into one of the energy bodies described in Theosophy. These energy bodies surround the physical body and make up separate layers of the aura.

When you're in the etheric body, you perceive an enhanced version of physical reality, including nature spirits. This is probably the body people end up in when they describe seeing elf-like beings on DMT. More advanced versions of nature spirits are devas, who represent a different evolutionary stream than ours. These beings have what we might experience as an alien consciousness, and may be what DMTers and abductees perceive as extraterrestrials.

Some DMT visions apparently take people into the astral body, providing a direct experience of the astral plane. The nightmarish visions probably correspond to the astral plane.

More heavenly visions could correspond to the mental body and mental plane. Contact with God or the Creator while on DMT could correspond to perception in an even higher energy body and plane.

Christopher Bache, author of Dark Night, Early Dawn used Holotropic Breathwork to achieve psychedelic states without the use of drugs. He broke through to some of the rarely achieved higher energy bodies and planes described in Theosophy. His experiences were possibly more orderly and