Hi ;)

see you around

Hi, Mar, and welcome to the Forum.

Please feel free to tell us a little about yourself. What part of the world are you in? Have you heard of Theosophy before?

Thank you.
_______________________

I cant write. Sorry..(maybe some other day)
But i hope for some discussions on forum.

Best regards ,

Hello Mar. It will be interesting hearing from you again. Yes, occassionally we get into a discussion or two.

Christian

Well, there are a few things about theosophy and other "wisdom, knowledge etc" that i would like to say.
I would also like to say that my english is not very well, but i hope we will understand each other.

I'm interested in so called eternal questions (who isn't;)).
And i'm looking from answers every day, from all the fields, resources. One of them is theosophy.
I don't know much about theosophy, but it interests me. Why? because it offers some "incredible", interesting explanations...Explanations that, it's hard to understand, how people know all that!
And here is a problem-
today there are so many "explanations", theories, religions, etc. that it's hard to find valuable thing out of it. Maybe it's simple if you don't complicate and just live and don't bother about "that stuff"...
But there are events in life that brings you to these "eternal questions", and some explanation is needed (like- is there anything with my consciousness after death and many others).
Few lines before i wrote- Why? because it offers some "incredible", interesting explanations...Explanations that, it's hard to understand, how people know all that!
- Maybe it's our wish to see these explanations, we see what we wanna see.
But on the other hand, looking from a sceptic position- there is Randi with 1 MIO dollar challenge- and i quote some text on his page- " To date, no one has ever passed the preliminary tests.".

Yes, here i am, and wanna know what you think.
I actually spend quite a lot of time thinking about these and similar questions. Maybe it would be easyer to live like we are raised by our parents (i was raised christian) cause in the end all religions teach love, respect one another, i guess. But, as i said- there is more, that people write, and here is "problem"- is this just fiction, ilussion? "all in your head..."

I could write more, but i think it's enough (it would become to melancholic i think) :)

Anyway, the best other "knowledge, wisdom" that i found so far was from India (Vedas), Srimad Bhagavatam. I like this because it gives me some nice feeling, On the other hand it is so complicated that i don't really understand the text, and all "their understanding".

See you arond ;)

Mar,

You said,

"...I would also like to say that my english is not very well, but i hope we will understand each other."

--> Do not worry, I understand you perfectly.

"I don't know much about theosophy, but it interests me. Why? because it offers some "incredible", interesting explanations...Explanations that, it's hard to understand, how people know all that!"

--> I agree. Theosophy gives me answers I cannot find anywhere else.

"...today there are so many "explanations", theories, religions, etc. that it's hard to find valuable thing out of it."

--> This is why we must use our own critical thinking skills. Each one of us must decide what goes into our belief system, and what does not. Fortunately, Theosophy encourages such questioning and critical thinking (most religions do not).

"Maybe it's simple if you don't complicate and just live and don't bother about "that stuff"..."

--> Yes and no. Keeping it simples makes understanding it easier. On the other hand, the principles by which the universe and humanity appeared are compllicated, and the more we understand them, the better. Another way to look at it is, Theosophy offers both simple and complicated answers to the mysteries of the universe.

"But there are events in life that brings you to these "eternal questions", and some explanation is needed (like- is there anything with my consciousness after death and many others)."

--> And Theosophy excels at giving these answers.

"Yes, here i am, and wanna know what you think."

--> I want to congratulate you for taking responsibility for own belief system. (Most people never do.)

"I actually spend quite a lot of time thinking about these and similar questions."

--> That is a good thing. The more, the better. Theosophy encourages such thinking.

"Maybe it would be easyer to live like we are raised by our parents (i was raised christian)...."

--> I am reminded of people who join the military because such a life is easy — someone else decides when they get up, when they eat, etc. Yes, using independent critical thinking is more difficult than following a dogmatic religion, but, in the end, it is better. Do your parents allow you to ask critical thinking questions about their religion?

I wander, how is even possible to find answers to such answers?
Like i said before- remember Randi's challenge.
__________________________________________

I think i can't agree here (that only theosophy have answers). There are many answers, from different sources- some of them (traditions) are much older then theosophy.
What i like the most is- compare them.

Well, i think this is why i am here.
To learn more about theosophy and find some comparison, similarites with other sources.

Regards

I hope I can ask for your opinion about many things;
where can i do that- here or in the forum?

Mar,

We discussed,

"Theosophy excels at giving these answers. --> I wonder, how is even possible to find answers to such answers?"

--> We can only try. Trying to answers such questions is a good thing.

"I think i can't agree here (that only theosophy have answers)."

--> I did not say only Theosophy has the answers. I said that I have not found anything better. (There is a big difference.)

"There are many answers, from different sources- some of them (traditions) are much older then theosophy."

--> Blavatskian Theosophy has only been around since the 1800's, but The Ancient Wisdom (a set of teachings that Theosophy is based on) has been around for millions of years (so it says). It is all a matter of how you look at it.

"What i like the most is- compare them."

--> Theosophy encourages you to compare them. What comparisons have you made so far?

"I hope I can answer for your opinion about many things...."

--> Please do!

"where can i do that- here or in the forum?"

--> It is best to do this in the different areas of the Forum. For example, we have an Area for reincarnation, karma, and Enlightenment. If you have such question, please ask them there. If you have general questions, please ask them in the Concepts Area.

well, that is what i'm searcing for;
i would love to participate with some questions in a forum, discussion, where we would have people from different "schools"- everyone say what he is expert in. I think the answers would be very interesting- but people not argueing about some unimportant thing, but looking for integration.

for the begging, there is one thing that i would like to hear your comment on-
this video: tp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8251447278663885234&q=naked+truth&hl=en

i find it hard to accept, but there are facts in it- and i'm trying to check them.
maybe you and other members could help.

what do you think about- watching a video- and then post some comments about what you have seen? i think it's easyer way than reading;)
are there any videos online, that you recomend?

(Maybe you could move this post to some other place..)

What exactly is the basis of Theosophy?

Mar,

You said,

"i would love to participate with some questions in a forum, discussion, where we would have people from different "schools"- everyone say what he is expert in."

--> I do not think anyone here is an expert at anything. We just pick a topic and discuss it.

"for the beginning, there is one thing that i would like to hear your comment on-
this video: tp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8251447278663885234&q=naked+truth&hl=en"

--> I am presently using a dial-up connection. Next week I will be back on a high-speed connection, so maybe I can take a look at the video then. However, it would be easier if you could just tell us the main ideas in the video.

"what do you think about- watching a video- and then post some comments about what you have seen? i think it's easyer way than reading...."

--> Unfortunately, I do not have a lot of time to watch videos. Also, many people here all already familiar with many of the topics within Theosophy, so if you simply ask questions, you will get answers quickly.

The best thing for you to do is ask questions.

"What exactly is the basis of Theosophy? "

--> We have a thread called "What is Theosophy?"

"What is Theosophy?"

Please read that thread and tell me what you think.

I make some notes from the video, also add a time (min, s) when it is taken. Hope it's enough to see, what is it about.

28.19 : All that we find in judaizm and christianity, there is virtualy not one concept, belief or idea expressed - in judaizm or christianity - not one - that can not be traced back many many times to many different religions - it's a very old ancient story - it's the greatest story ever told.

43.45: amon-ra /horus (fharaoh) * christ * krishna * budha *
and all of the other 16 saviours (46.27) (comparison between them)

47.40: We are not dealing with myths, we are not dealing with belief systems, we are not dealing with faith, we are dealing with facts. Historical data, it's there, you can't set that aside; jesus had the same kind of life, did the same kind of things as krishna and budha, and there they were - all 16 of these man - coincidence?

And then it goes to astrotheology (zodiac).
_______________________________________

I like video, because it is to with something that is written, facts.
Well, my question is- is this data correct?
Or maybe you know (if you are familiar with this), what "the other side" can said about all that.

Looking forward for your comments.

Some of the things that looked interesting to me, was this:
Prem and Ashish, in their book Man, the Measure of All Things (p. 105), discuss how the Bible, Hermetic Corpus, Rig Veda, Kabbalic Zohar, and Upanishads all come from a common source.

Is this online?

_______________________

MOTTO: "There is no religion higher than truth"
-more i think, less i know what to say...

Mar,

No, the book is not online. Here is the quote.

"The Darkness breathes over the slumbering Waters, and we are reminded of the verse in Genesis, 'And Darkness was upon the face of the Deep'.1 In the Hermetic Corpus the same theme occurs: 'There was darkness in the deep and water without form and there was a subtle breath, intelligent, which permeated the things in Chaos with divine power. Then when all was yet undistinguished and unwrought there was shed forth holy light and the elements came into being'.2 Again, in the famous Vedic Creation hymn included in the Hindu sandhya ritual, Darkness and waters are the symbols of the primal pair: 'From That arose the primal darkness; from That arose the waters of the ocean'.3 In the Zohar, Darkness is called the strongest fire of the many different coloured (i.e. manifest) fires-the Heracleitean Fire in its condition of ultimate unnknowability — and the same text speaks of a nucleus, which is the 'germ' of our verse, that is of no colour at all. This absence of colour is found in the Upanishads: 'The One who himself without colour, by the manifold application of his power distributes many colours in his hidden purposes'.4 These citations have been included, not because they make the position very much clearer for the average reader, who may perhaps find them altogether too full of 'darkness', but because they show the universality of the doctrine which the Stanzas are setting forth."

1 Cf. Transactions of the Blavatsky Lodge, p. 35.

2 Hermetic Corpus, III. 1b (Walter Scott)

3 Rig Veda, X. 190. 1. Taco ratrya Jiiyata tatah samudro a".Javab. • SvetaIvatara Upanishad, IV. 1.

Presh & Ashish, Man, the Measure of All Things

This quote show beautifully how Christiantiy, Hinduism, and Judiasm all originally came from the same source.

[The] "more i think, less i know what to say... "

--> Think more. Ask more questions.

Understanding, what these teachings talk about is not easy. I think it's about internal (deeper meanings) of each that can be similar, if you know what you are reading- but i don't know any.
______________________________
I'm creating my own picture and perhaps you might help me bring some pieces ;)
Step to the concepts that i see discussed here is just to big for me.
I would like to build good base (facts,..), but i can't start to study all these books- there are just to many.
What i would like to have is- "the big picture"..
And there are many things in my mind i would like to connect- for example - the topic in the video. I need to clear this thing, an i guess new horizon will open.

Regards, m

"And there are many things in my mind i would like to connect...."

--> The best thing is for you to ask questions.

I was reading in some other forum, and find this:

Question: What happens when we die?

Some answers:

some nice thoughts:
- I imagine your friend was a good person, so there is nothing to worry about.
- I just hope I go out with honour, courage and something to be remembered.....
- Because I have loved life, I shall have no sorrow to die
- Tom Cruise to tell him how his most loyal and amazing Samurai died..... And Tom Cruise says; No, I'll tell you how he lived.... The thing here is, it's life that counts not death, that is the important part, what you did, who you loved, what you stood for.... How you lived is what should be remembered not death.........
_______________________________________

I find a sentence in this forum that Theosophy is all about - preparing for next life, after life.. etc (but i can't find it now).
____________


My main question is- Why do you believe Theosophy? On what basis do you build- on a "hope" that - sometimes people were wiser than us, and through their writings i'll find answers- on that?
Hope you understand this would be my question to others too- not just theosophy.

Have in mind this sentence: After centuries of human existence, no one has ever yet come back, from the dead, with incontravertional truth, that there is anything beyond death, which also means, that countless thousands of people, who has spend their lifes preparing for the next life, may just be wasting their time.
And even if we suppose, that there is something after death, as no one knows exactly what it is, how can you possibly prepair yourself, for an entirely unknown situation.
(other question would be: this video is quite old, and it would be interesting to see how this people think today- are they still thinking like that- or are they on another level (if there is any?!)- that's what i would like to find here - maybe this kind of questions are just one step in our's "spiritual evolution"- and i'm looking for next level ;)....
but then again- another level of what- illusion?... -here it comes to main question that is written few lines earlyer)

Regards

"My main question is- Why do you believe Theosophy? "

You have quoted a large range of possible answers. A\all these possibilities are certainly confusing.

You quoted my answer,

"I believe in both Heaven and Reincarnation, so I believe your good friend will time spend time in Heaven, then probably return for another reincarnation. (I believe that all good people spend time in Heaven, no matter what religion they believed in.)"

--> I would add the idea of Nirvana which is a different place to go to, once the cycle of reincarnations ends. I see Heaven as a place of rest while I see Nirvana as a place of great activity.

You said,

"I find a sentence in this forum that Theosophy is all about - preparing for next life, after life.. etc (but i can't find it now)."

--> Yes, that is how I see it. The whole purpose of life is to prepare for the next level. Does that make sense to you?

"My main question is- Why do you believe Theosophy?"

--> Because it makes absolutely perfect sense to me. I can find no flaw in the concept whatsoever. And, every other pilosophy I have seen has flaws (in my opinion).

Please feel free to point out parts of Theosophy that do not make sense to you.

"On what basis do you build - on a "hope" that - sometimes people were wiser than us, and through their writings i'll find answers- on that?"

--> You are asking if I trust wise people and their writings. I do. I have found the people who started Theosophy to be very wise. This is one of the Goldern Stairs.

"A clean life, an open mind, a pure heart, an eager intellect, an unveiled spiritual perception, a brotherliness for one’s co-disciple, a readiness to give and receive advice and instruction; a loyal sense of duty to the Teacher, a willing obedience to the behests of Truth, once we have placed our confidence in and believe that Teacher to be in possession of it; a courageous endurance of personal injustice, a brave declaration of principles, a valiant defence of those who are unjustly attacked, and a constant eye to the ideal of human progression and perfection which the Secret Science depicts -- these are the golden stairs up the steps of which the learner may climb to the Temple of Divine Wisdom."

- H. P. Blavatsky

Another important part is I have examined Theosophy philosophy very carefully and critically. I do not believe something just because it is in book. (This is the important point I have highlighted in bold above.)

"...and through their writings i'll find answers...?"

--> Yes, if they make sense to you, after you look at them critically. Plus one more thing. The answers have to ring true for you. (They already ring true for me.)

"...countless thousands of people, who has spend their lifes preparing for the next life, may just be wasting their time."

--> That is always a possibility. You have to use your critical thinking skills to decide if Theosophy sounds logical to you. Does it?

"...how can you possibly prepair yourself, for an entirely unknown situation."

--> Take advise (1) from wise teachers (2) that makes sense to you. (This is the only way it can be done.)

"...this video is quite old, and it would be interesting to see how this people think today...."

--> I am very busy, so it will be difficult for me to find time to look at it. In the meantimes, paraphrase some ideas from the video for us.

Mar,
In regards to Nick's reply below, some further thoughts:

Since 'good' is a relative term, it is reasonable that everyone has at least the tiniest speck of goodness in them. It could have been in their thoughts, in some act of kindness or generosity. Certainly, this would seem likely when we were younger, regardless what the circumstances of life have made us. For this reason, I believe that Theosophy tells us that we will have at least this amount of commensurate awareness in Heaven.

I've always told people, "It's pretty hard not to enter Heaven. The length of stay is the actual concern."

I gather, first, you mean more explicitly, ‘not just Theosophists’, or ‘and not just about Theosophy.’

This would, in my humble opinion, be wise. Our minds are like computer’s programmed a certain way. This can be restricting. Inquire of everyone, and to wherever you are drawn.

When we hear others speak about their belief system, from their understanding and point of view, we ‘learn something.’ What we learn not only adds to our body of information, to which we will make our own deductions, ---- but as well, it ‘opens up or minds’ and we function on a higher spiritual level. Basically, it increases our capacity to entertain these subjects.

This latter broader approach to gleaning the significance, accuracy and appropriateness, breadth of information, reasonableness, fundamental beliefs, requirements, basis, proofs, etc. is what allows us to ascertain the salient parts of our own views, as well as those of others.

Additionally, the simple pursuit and discussion on a High level, has the affect of raising our own ‘connections’ to whatever spiritual realms our beliefs support, and we can glean more of that all important ‘truth’ from them. Theosophy would suggest we become ‘reacquainted’ with essential truths. Other religions and belief systems suggest entirely different ways at reaching one’s truth.

I can offer my take on this Mar, and I by no means would be considered a knowledgeable source on Theosophy, so consider this imperfect input.

Mar, it seems self evident as we study and review history, religion and/or philosophies, that spiritual beliefs were more intrinsic in the way of life of the people of older times. A body’s belief system seemed intertwined with their culture. Being inseparable, it allowed us to ascertain the actual beliefs of a culture through its continuity in their history. Not only are the beliefs therein recorded, but with reasons and justifications, demonstrations and allegory.

As well, the cultures of the past were long-termed. As lives were relatively simple in comparison to those of today, and, given that the living of one’s life had a religion as a central guiding basis, there was continual attention on the beliefs themselves, for generation, after generation, after generation. They were subject to review and development from day-to-day, for the term of the civilization. When such a large body is focused on a belief system, many things are worked out, discussed, expressed, explored, proven. This becomes ‘wisdom’ when it is repeatedly so.

Furthermore, cultures were pockets of civilization in older days, not having quite our mobility and ease of communication. Therefore, a religion, philosophy or belief system had the duration of time, focus and practice to develop it into a true wisdom. However, this wisdom may have particular or specific import for that civilization, and locale.

Its relevance to distant neighbors may be questionable for circumstances, and culture would be different there. With this view in mind, one can accept that there may be wisdom in several or all religions, belief systems and philosophies relative to their own civilization. Their relevance to an outside world is where they truly become tested. Some make it, some don’t. Even more likely is that they start to homogenize a bit. They fragment too as some stick strictly to orthodox teachings, and others broaden their perspectives to be more relatively cognitive and appealing.

To more directly answer your question now, I don’t think most religions, belief systems or philosophies are actually based on ‘hope.’ All will offer their set of substantiations. Unfortunately for us moderns, we must reach inside of us to find resonation. It is certainly a bit of work, for we now become personally responsible for our own beliefs. We, and this is my observation, seem to find some place in side of us where we have a ‘knowing’ about this principle, or another. We tend to start following those systems that seem to make sense to us, or ‘resonate.’ Of course, in recent history we tended to follow the belief systems of our parents, we took that on faith. Today, this seems to be changing, and we seek a greater ‘knowing.’ We want the choice and right to decide. Again, that is simply my observation.

When we start reviewing, analyzing, rationalizing, eternalizing, experiencing, exploring our religions, philosophies or belief systems, we, as a course of natural process, develop that ‘knowing.’ Wherever we are in our life, [and life cycles], we can develop this sense, and our adopted, or adapted, beliefs will feel right and truthful to us. As with many systems that acknowledge Reincarnation, as Theosophists we do have the comfort of knowing that we are doing the best we can do for who and what we are.

It is possible that later on, or in a later life, we may develop a change in course. If we are being responsible for gathering the best information, aka ‘wisdom’ available to us, we should find ourselves on a correct course. This would be one of those times when Time is our friend.

I think, though, that as a guiding influence, we should ‘feel’ good about our choices. For, we are demonstrating honesty with ourselves. I believe, further, if we come by our belief by personal examination and experience, we will find ourselves very open to hearing other or new opinions. We will not feel threatened. We will always be searching for what we feel is ‘truth.’

Now, rationally, it is hard to ascertain all of these facts in one simple lifetime. Therefore, it behooves us to avail ourselves to available wisdom. We should naturally find ourselves ‘drawn’ to one, or certain ones. Again, because there will always be some guidepost that exists deep inside of us. We should be willing to let our beliefs develop and grow. And, if necessary, change, so that our choice of religion or belief is forever a glowing beacon before us, to which we can steer our course.

For me, Theosophy has provided the greater degree of wisdom that is reasonable and palatable, demonstrates a concentration of effort to prove its works, as it draws from many ancient cultures, and provides a long term and reasonable answer to how my spiritual self shall develop. It makes sense. If feels right. It tends to stand up to scrutiny. It provides answers that go beyond this life, and just my person. It explains all things, within reason, and the Universe. It seems reasonable, rational, responsible and respectable.

For you, …. well, “that is your discovery.” Theosophists can only ask that you set your sites far and High, so that you may see your way to your farthest destinations, and find peace in the sojourn.

You questioned if you should set your hopes that “(1) sometimes people were wiser than us,” and (2) through their writings i'll find answers- on that.” To (1) I would offer that it’s a pretty safe bet. There are now, and were in the past people who are wiser than us. It is the ‘culture’ element I introduced earlier that most likely holds the proof for you. To question (2), You do not have to rely on their writings. True spiritual development includes an element of ‘experience.’ That experience of what you seek as being ‘true’ is what will guide you. Be willing to experience in small steps, portions of a system, those that you understand. Build on your experiences. You will innately begin following [what you already know] to be true.

On behalf of everyone here, we appreciate your inquiry on our perspectives. However, the ‘hope’ is actually in yourself, not in us to prove or disprove something. You have a predisposition within you already that is guiding you. It is we that hope you find a safe port to rest and contemplate the remainder of your journey.

Thank you.

Christian

Thank you. :)

(i add some things later)

"I find a sentence in this forum that Theosophy is all about - preparing for next life, after life.. etc (but i can't find it now)."
--> Yes, that is how I see it. The whole purpose of life is to prepare for the next level. Does that make sense to you?

** Yes and No.
After centuries of human existence, no one has ever yet come back, from the dead, with incontravertional truth, that there is anything beyond death,...

So, what is it that makes you believe there is another level?
__________________________________________
"...countless thousands of people, who has spend their lifes preparing for the next life, may just be wasting their time."
--> That is always a possibility. You have to use your critical thinking skills to decide if Theosophy sounds logical to you. Does it

**I'm still searcing for a good reason,arguement to work on.
(At the moment, i find Theosophy- interestnig- nothing more- just like other "wisdom/knowledge"...)
_________________________________________

--> I am very busy, so it will be difficult for me to find time to look at it. In the meantimes, paraphrase some ideas from the video for us.

**Well, i found one theosophyan site discussing this topic :
http://www.theosophical.ca/WordlsCrucifiedSaviorsJAA.html

to add more info on this:
[QUOTE] The Sun
The Sun is known as the true saviour. The Sun of God gives up it's energy and life force to provide the Earth and it's inhabitants with warmth and food and many other things. It dies at the Winter Solstice and is reborn three days later on December 25th. This is when it begins it's annual journey back to the Northern Hemisphere. The Ancient calender also started at a different time. It began in Virgo and ended in Leo, that is why the Sphynx has the head of a Virgin and the Body of a Lion.
When the Sun of God was re-born, it was in the Constellation of Virgo, so it was said "Born of a Virgin". The Sun is the "Eye of God" or "Eye of Horus". Ra was the Sun God in Egypt. His full name was Amen Ra. That is why we say "A-men" after our prayers. The Egyptians knew this and all of the Egyptian beliefs and customs are built into our society secretly by the Freemasons
The Origin of the Trinity, the Father, the Sun, and the Holy Spirit. Horus comes up at the "Hor-izon". He is born, this is the beginning, 12:00 he is the "Most High", and then the Sun "Sets", hence "Set" or "Satan", the prince of darkness does battle with the light of the world and wins, until the Sun is re-born the next day. This is a representation of the evolution of life. The birth, or the beginning, mid-life starting in your teen years, and old age, leading to death, the end of life.[/quote]-Like Jesus, Horus was born to a virgin, Isis-Meri, on December 25 in a cave or a manger.
-Like Jesus, Horus' birth was announced by a star in the east and he was allegedly attended by three wise men.
-Before his death, Horus had 12 disciples..
-To begin with, Mithra was born of a virgin in a cave on December 25. [/QUOTE]
(I hope i'm not too anoying with this topic)

When such a large body is focused on a belief system, many things are worked out, discussed, expressed, explored, proven. This becomes ‘wisdom’ when it is repeatedly so.
_______________________________

For me, Theosophy has provided the greater degree of wisdom that is reasonable and palatable, demonstrates a concentration of effort to prove its works, as it draws from many ancient cultures, and provides a long term and reasonable answer to how my spiritual self shall develop. It makes sense. If feels right. It tends to stand up to scrutiny. It provides answers that go beyond this life, and just my person. It explains all things, within reason, and the Universe. It seems reasonable, rational, responsible and respectable.
_______________________________

You questioned if you should set your hopes that “(1) sometimes people were wiser than us,” and (2) through their writings i'll find answers- on that.” To (1) I would offer that it’s a pretty safe bet. There are now, and were in the past people who are wiser than us. It is the ‘culture’ element I introduced earlier that most likely holds the proof for you. To question (2), You do not have to rely on their writings. True spiritual development includes an element of ‘experience.’ That experience of what you seek as being ‘true’ is what will guide you. Be willing to experience in small steps, portions of a system, those that you understand. Build on your experiences. You will innately begin following [what you already know] to be true.
_______________________________

On behalf of everyone here, we appreciate your inquiry on our perspectives. However, the ‘hope’ is actually in yourself, not in us to prove or disprove something. You have a predisposition within you already that is guiding you. It is we that hope you find a safe port to rest and contemplate the remainder of your journey.

**I could say now- i like motto: there is no religion higher than truth.
But what is truth?

Truth about one situation has it's "history"- the history that lead to that situation.
So you can can go on and on back and look for "previous reasonos".. and then look for a previous reason and on.. Is there "a first" reason? Was there a begginng?
Or is it the unlimited yournei back?
____________________________
Now, rationally, it is hard to ascertain all of these facts in one simple lifetime. Therefore, it behooves us to avail ourselves to available wisdom. We should naturally find ourselves ‘drawn’ to one, or certain ones. Again, because there will always be some guidepost that exists deep inside of us. We should be willing to let our beliefs develop and grow. And, if necessary, change, so that our choice of religion or belief is forever a glowing beacon before us, to which we can steer our course.

**..Now, rationally, it is hard to ascertain all of these facts in one simple lifetime...

Hope that doesn't sound selfish, but, all i'm looking for is a good reason, to believe "all of these facts"..

(i add some things to post which is posted on Jun 4 2007, 05:02 PM)

Christian,

You said,

"A body’s belief system seemed intertwined with their culture. Being inseparable, it allowed us to ascertain the actual beliefs of a culture through its continuity in their history."

That begs the question: what role should religion have in a modern society, where there is a wise separation of church and state, and people of different religions all live in the same place?

"When we start reviewing, analyzing, rationalizing, eternalizing, experiencing, exploring our religions, philosophies or belief systems, we, as a course of natural process, develop that ‘knowing.’ "

--> I would add that Theosophy encourages us to use our critical thinking skills to do this, while many religions do not.

"We will not feel threatened. We will always be searching for what we feel is ‘truth.’ "

--> This is the very strength of Theosophy. Theosophy says we should not feel threatened by a search for truth. Rather, we should find strength from such a search.

"We should be willing to let our beliefs develop and grow. And, if necessary, change, so that our choice of religion or belief is forever a glowing beacon before us, to which we can steer our course.

--> That is a nice way of looking at it.

"...Theosophy ... makes sense."

--> In my opinion, this is the stongest aspect of Theosophy.

"You have a predisposition within you already that is guiding you."

--> It has been said that when a person starts asking questions about the Path, they are getting ready to enter the Path itself.

Mar,

You said,

"So, what is it that makes you believe there is another level?"

--> I have two responses.

(1) Because it makes sense to me. I can find no flaw in the concept whatsoever. (Can you?)

(2) What makes you think there is not?

http://www.theosophical.ca/WordlsCrucifiedSaviorsJAA.html

--> what do you think of the ideas at that site?

What connection do you see between Horus and Theosophical teachings?

"I hope i'm not too anoying with this topic."

--> Not at all.

"...all i'm looking for is a good reason, to believe 'all of these facts'.. "

--> Take them one at a time. Use your critical thinking skills, and analyze each idea one by one. Theosophy says ideas need to make sense to you before you put them into your belief system. Theosophy relies more on common sense than dogma.

Feel free to pick and choose what you believe. Take Christian as an example. He believes some parts of Theosophy, and other parts he does not believe. This may work for you too.

(To 2)- I was discussing this before. Conversation went something like this:
(question was- is there anything with our consciousness after death?)

First we discussed that there might be 2 possibilities = Yes or No.
But only one of them is correct. So, there is only one - the one, that happens.

Of course question is, how would you know that?
Answer was:
Yes, it's true- it is a question.
But we have some good clues, (hints) - every sense experiencing, every thinking, and every feeling (experiencing) is happening during the measuring working of the brain.

What do you say?

Mars,

I am confused. Do you or don't you think there is another level?

"...how would you know that?"

--> My answer has always been: because it makes sense to me.

I would say times have changed. The world is an international place, and those locales that stick to a religion-based culture appear to me to be in turmoil, at war, and fighting inevitable change.

There was, however, a wonderful benefit to this system, as it resulted in the Ancient Wisdom, or components of it. I don't see another great opportunity such as this happening, as people are moving away from organized religions. That people die for the rightiousness of their religion is a ethic who's day has passed, I feel. It seems more valid now to let people discover their own truth and belief, and further, to have the freedom to experience it openly.

Therefore, change seems to be an inevitability for organized religions, as they must grow, expand, adapt to retain their followers. Whether this erodes the soundness of the religion seems inevitable as well, and as Blavatsky seems to alude to, if I am to be kind, in her commentary on Christianity, Hinuism and Buddhism too.

I sense there will be a natural drive towards a comparitive religion philosophy, where people can actually learn the salient and quintessential components of each religion, so as to form a more perfect belief system for themselves. In essence, the New Age movement does this now, but to my chagrin, they are not so keen to actually ascertain what was an ancient teaching, and what is a fanciful notion. This, I will gather in order to remain positive, is par for the course as new belief sytems develop.

Christian

:lol: LOL :lol: "encourages," perhaps. I would suggest 'necessitates!' Could anyone get past the first Stanza without this predisposition? haa haa. I should think the 'mental' attributes of this 'race', its promise, will be required to go through the exercise of comprehending the Doctrines. I don't see a mad dash to Theosophy, but that there are [some] may be all the impetus that is needed to get momentum going. Each of these researchers shall make some mark, impart some influence which will get the boulders edging along. Alas, a 'full-roll' is not self-evident, but logarithmecally, its a logical possibility.

Christian

And, I can say this is what happens, from my purview. We DO find strength from the search, we DO. I consider this the reward of personal envolvement itself, and as we take responsibility for our 'knowing-ness' we gain stength to burst through life's/religion's artificial barriers.

Christian

Not sure who's post this was. I think the answer presumes 'physical-world' proofs, as there are Spiritual and psychic proofs, which are evident to those who can experience and believe from those frames of reference. Since spirituality is a large part of what Theosophy is about, we have to entertain considering our proofs to come across that way. My perspective, opinion, etc. Regardless of one's spiritual and/or psychic abilities and receptiveness, I should think everyone seeking a 'truth' should gain an 'experience' of some sort when they encounter it. (OK. My opinion.)

Christian

:)
Well, i would love to believe there is.
But i can't say anything
______________________________________________

I've got a question:

- Can consciousness exist without a physical body?
And if answer is positive, what kind of influence can it have to physical nature?

What kind of influence,action could that part of consciousness that goes to another level or physical body (but is in the state of no physical body) have on physical nature?

Mar,

You asked,

"Can consciousness exist without a physical body?"

--> Yes. This is exactly what will happens when we enter Nirvana, Parinirvana, etc.

"And if answer is positive, what kind of influence can it have to physical nature?"

--> Consciousness can have a great deal of positive influence on the physical world, but I think this mostly comes at the end of our Path through the physical world.

First, let me explain the terms young soul and old soul. These terms have become very common in New Age writings, and I feel they are appropriate to Theosophy as well. The idea is that young souls are quite new at being incarnated into a human body, while old souls have matured a great deal as a result of human incarnating, and are ready to move on to the next level. There are various stages in between, such as teenage souls, middle-aged souls, etc.

In the beginning, consciousness has very little impact at all on young souls. They are just trying to figure out how human life works. By the time we become old souls, our consciousness is in control, and our consciousness uses the physical world to give us beneficial experiences that (1) accelerate our progress along the Path and (2) give us valuable spirituality that we can take with us to Devachan and Nirvana.

"What kind of influence,action could that part of consciousness that goes to another level or physical body (but is in the state of no physical body) have on physical nature?"

--> Once we stop physically reincarnating forever, we can still have an impact on people, animals, etc., in the physical world. (I personally believe we become guardian angels once we stop reincarnating, but that is not a Theosophical teaching.) All beings on this Earth receive quidance from higher beings that do not reincarnate. Once we stop reincarnating, we will join these higher beings in directing the progress of all sentient beings on Earth.

What about more practical things?

What can they (higher beings, etc) do?
I mean- is there any way that they can show, that they are here?
What can they do- do they have 5 (or6) senses like we? Can they move a cup that is on the table (for example)..

Mar,

You asked,

"...is there any way that they can show, that they are here?"

--> First of all, there must be a need for non-incarnated Mahatmas (and higher) to show us they are here. I think it happens very, very rarely. Mahatmas deal mostly with their chelas (students). I do not think Mahatmas deal directly with us "normal humans" on a one-on-one basis. I think they send out "psychic" help to everyone in a general way, so that we benefit because we are part of a large group the Mahatmas are trying to influence.

I do not think Mahatmas need to "interfere" in our lives with signs they are "here". I believe karma takes care of most of the things we need, and protects us when we need to be protected. Of course, Mahatmas are not allowed to interfere with our karma.

You may be thinking Mahatamas go around searching for new chelas (students), and they might be willing to do a few psychic tricks to get our attention. In my opinion, this absolutely does not happen. I feel it is we who must get their attention, not the other way around. I believe that doing things that accelerate our progress (service to humanity, etc.) gets their attention. On this subject, I would like to share one thing I read years ago. The Mahatmas can see all the astral bodies, mental bodies, etc., of everyone in the world. We are like little light bulbs walking around on the Earth, as far as the Mahatmas are concerned. When an unusually spiritual person is walking around, I believe their astral body shines brightly like a beacon, and the Mahatmas cannot miss sighting such a person.

"...do they have 5 (or 6) senses like we?"

--> I believe they can sense everything we can, plus more.

"Can they move a cup that is on the table (for example)..?"

--> I believe they can. The question is, why would they want to? It is either (1) they want to get our attention and prove to us they exist or (2) they need to give something to their chela, so they materialize it for them.

In (1), I do not think it happens. I do not think they go around trying to convince people they exist. (2) This probably happens for their chelas, but we are not their chelas, so it never happens to us.

"What about more practical things?"

--> I am not sure what you are referring to. Please give me some examples.

"What can they (higher beings, etc) do?"

--> A lot! Higher beings are actually very busy. They guide ethnic groups, nations, races, all races on one planet, groups of planets (Rounds), groups of Rounds (Manvantaras), etc.

For example, when the Leader of a Race wants that Race to begin appearing on the Earth, he actually designs the unique physical characteristics of that race, starts having those kinds of babies be born, and actively supervises the creation of that race from scratch. It is a lot of work, and the Leader of that Race is kept busy for thousands and thousands of years, getting his Race ready. (Races do not just appear, they have to be created, or rather crafted, and that is what the Leader does.)

To answer your question, I believe they can do whatever they want to do. The question is -- what do they want to do? (Giving psychic phenomena like moving tables and flickering lights -- to prove they exist -- is not something they want to do.)

MAR --

As re: you question on truth:
Be assured, there are people here far more qualified and capable to speak of such High matters. Since the question follows my own prior reply to you it falls upon me to at least attempt some answer:

To me, truth would be the undeniable experience and realization that we are NOT what we have known ourselves to rationally be, in common world terms. Rather, we are undeniably, inextricably, connected to some conceptual fabric of existence that shows our perceived reality as a low reflective manifestation of a Universal ALL, which shines with an intrinsic brilliance that leaves barely perceptible the reality of physical man. Although bathed in the utter darkness of the universe we conventionally see, the truth of its resplendent existence is palpable to us through an experienced realization of the similar light within us, sensed as a soul and spirit.

Our discernment of the spiritual nature of existence is qualified by heretofore hidden principles within us that issue forth as a re-discovery of our “knowing” that we belong, and are part-and-parcel in spirit, meaning and cause of all that is. This true knowing is in itself, “the truth.” This inexorable certainness of our being, and our having been, is a key to our True Self, and its subsequent rediscovery is a never-ending aspect of ‘living’ in the truest sense. Faster than measurable time, we apprehend our ‘connectiveness’ to every thing, that is, ever was, and ever will be. As well, profound insight is self-assurance that it is ‘you’ who are as bright a light as each of the milliard of stars in the sky, and as quintessential a soul and spirit of the Allness as any, and your comparative luminosity is exact in every way to every sparkle of existence, none overshadowing you, nor you more resplendent than one.

The magnificence of existence is wisdom beyond the words of religions or the insight of philosophies, as it is the true and positive reflection of your being at ‘cause’ for the apparent Universe; your ultimate responsibility, privilege and rationale of existing. The opportunity of life itself is further substantiation of your participation in creation.

Such prose as this serves the ‘experience’ of your Higher Self, and therefore your ‘Truth.’ Surely considerable philosophy and discourse will follow to gratify the hunger that is actually, your higher mind, as well.

Know thyself through the experience of your ‘Self.’




As pertains your question of ‘first cause’ I offer my limited opinion in this way:

You seek to know what ‘was,’ so that you can understand what ‘is.’ This is logic, and it is infallible in its application to the physical reality that you live in. I suggest that the nature of the unasked question behind your request for a ‘first cause,’ is ‘why am I here?’

Logic, reasoning, associations, sequence et’al are measurements that have no consequence to the spiritual nature of existence. You must seek and find the answer from a spiritual frame of mind.

You are the reason. You are the first cause. You have no true relationship with time. There is no history. You are yourself as much a part of the cause of things, as you are a part of the manifestation of your physical being. You labor under the presumption that ‘the ineffable’ executed His absolute wisdom and sequentially ‘created’ your perception of existence. I submit, that he simply allowed ‘His Will,’ and the reflections of Him, as you are, were and are the cause for the existence you both perceive and surmise. You are yourself NOT a creation. You always were for there is NO start, as there is NO end, there is simply an ‘always.’ Creation itself, whether we attribute such to a ‘Creator’, or to ourselves when we understand our part in it, is a manifestation; albeit as real as anything and everything for it is a ‘human’ manifestation you live in. I cannot remove this reality, no one can. And as true, I cannot give you a beginning or end in the context of ‘first cause.’ I do not believe anyone could. There never was one, and there is now and always will be an infinite one. But, it is regardless, you.

Part of reaching an understanding of this is the realization that you were not always a ‘you’ in the sense you are now. That is to say, you are not only Man, or just Man. “Man” is a state of awareness, often the highest that we sense. We can give names and labels to those states, or levels, of what we were, and what we will be, but in true effect, the true ‘we’ has not changed, our level of awareness of ourselves and all things has. This ‘awareness’ is analogous to ‘movement,’ a quintessential aspect of conceptualizing existence.

Theosophy speaks to a never-beginning, never-ending evolution of consciousness. Such realization does not, never will, nor never could change the essence of what you are in any way, I believe. It does, however, allow your [perception] of what you are to change in an ever-expansive, forward/upward direction. The reality of your physical existence is a evident (manifested) necessity that ‘allows,’ through the incorporation of similarly manifested, yet organized matters and energies of varying grades, your exploration, development and realization of ‘self.’ It is your emersion in ‘matter’ which stimulates your self-awareness. This collectively would be the ‘unfoldment’ process, in short, to which Theosophy speaks reverentially.

The ‘why you are here,’ I addressed in the prior reply. The rationale of why you are here in physical-world, and in logical terms, I have now just proffered. You are because, you are! This is the concept you must be able to grasp. There is no “one’s” purpose. There was no beginning, nor there be an end. These are ‘measurements’ of a physical existence, not a spiritual one. Man cannot easily, nor will he naturally, conceive of an ‘ever”, and “always” or an “infinite.” These require a reference, and they are inherently limiting expressions. The absolute infinite existence of which you are exceeds in every way the limit of these terms. There is no ‘knowing’ possible due to the inherent, inextricatable anthropcentric nature of the physical human mind; this limitation itself being due to its residency in the lower Planes of Existence. When Man persists at centering himself in the existence of things, he will by logical necessity need to prove himself, relative to [himself.] I submit, that it is [this] that is illogical. The world, all things, are not about Us. The Universe, Space, Time, … these are all relative measurement tools for the utilization of Man alone. This, because he views himself to be central to all things. There are no things! There is no ‘you’ in the way you realize yourself. There is the perception of a manifestation. A ‘first cause’ limits the infinitude of the word infinite. It is a measurement. You exist as you do so you can perceive your very nature, or if you prefer the reality of God. Although I would not say that you are God, “the Absolute” as some may readily do, I would say that you always were as close to the Absolute as you ever will be. But, the experience, the ‘knowing’ of you and your relationship to the Absolute will be new. [This] is your creation.

“You Are!” Center your mental gyrations on this ideation.


To your question of why to belive

There is NO good reason, Mar. It is simply your nature, as it is with all mankind who are at a stage in their realization of things where they want to “know” of their reality. To “know” absolutely.

You will believe because, and when, you can not do otherwise. You have exceeded the limits of your rational mind, and you have found yourself “unfolding.” You are expanding your awareness of yourself, and this is inevitability. The best news, though, is that you are simply trying to answer questions to which you already know the answer. These are within you. The unfolding we speak of is your realization of your truer reality.

Some say we are “drawn” to our truth, or belief. Figurative as this concept is, it serves the purpose. You will most likely question that which you already, intrinsically, know and understand, albeit, on a deep, hidden, recessed level. As you re-experience it [again], this time in this physical existence, it will, and logically I submit, you will experience a “knowing” inside of you. Your struggle will be to frame it in words from this lifetime that match the truth, which [awaits] just beneath the surface of your existence.

The “truth” comes from your willingness to find it. The reason you seek it is because you are now ready to. The choice to believe in a teaching, a philosophy, a religion or whatever, is that it matches to the best degree the knowledge within you. It is the “key” to the secrets you have under “lock.” The discovery, and your subsequent unfoldment, that which you have secreted away, is “enlightenment.” This enlightenment is NOT NEW. Definitely not new to you. It represents the true starting point of this lifetime. Your current incarnation is to allow you to [add] to this enlightenment. The limits of this quintessential proving ground necessitates time and reincarnation, both blessings that you enjoy. Therefore, behind all this inquisition, is the need to get on with the NEW discoveries that serve the purpose of this current, physical existence. That is where you actually are in life, … I suggest.

Approach you inclinations with the knowledge that you will gravitate to the answers that will allow you to grow in your self-awareness. There are no bad questions. You seek only the combinations that unlock the secrets within you. From that renewed vantage point you will illumine.

Christian

What symbolism has sun in Theosophy?
Is this about the logos?