From the Philaletheians site - a short compilation on treading the Path with a self-centered motive.

http://www.philaletheians.co.uk/Study%20no...nd%20yogins.pdf

Nicholas,

That is a good discussion on the mis-use of asceticism. Even Buddha tried severe asceticism, and found it to be a mistake. Buddha then discovered the higher value of the Middle Way, which rejects asceticism such as beating oneself with chains, etc.

Christian,

You have picked up on an important idea. In Theravada Buddhism, many people think just sitting in a temple and meditating will get them enlightened. Theosophy (at least the Besant version) says no — a person must have a solid record of service to humanity, or they cannot become enlightened. This makes a lot of sense to me, and that is why giving service is an important part of my belief system.

One of the criticisms of the Rishis of Hinduism made by the Mahayana does focus on their samadhi "bodhi". It is not really wisdom or understanding, except when one is in the state. There are many examples of great Rishis (such as Visvamitra) who, when not in their Rishi-samadhi condition, had explosive tempers or raging lust etc.

The Mahayana considers rising to a higher state, condition or realm as nice and one can gain powers etc., but until the real bodhi wisdom pervades our waking state so that our ethics are fixed in harmlessness, if not altruism, then we will suffer the same problems as any samadhi-based path.

Nicholas,

What is a samadhi-based path?

That is a great story about Visvamitra. It makes me wonder if Enlightenment (the same as Rishi-samadhi?) is a state of mind which we can raise ourselves up to. It seems that Visvamitra may have been the kind of person that raised himself up to Enlightenment when he tried, yet let himself slide into a very un-Enlightenment state of mind (anger, lust) when he was not concentrating.

This brings up an important point for me. I believe that all of us have personal and emotional issues that need to be resolved before Enlightenment is possible. Some people think we can just meditate our way out of personal and emotional issues. I do not. What do you think?

Nick the Pilot: What is a samadhi-based path?

Samadhi is just a very focused concentration. There is no thinking or attempt to understand. One simply identifies with and tries to become a being, plane, state etc. For most religious paths that is the primary way of escaping this world. Become one with god, Jesus, some higher plane or quality. During a lifetime one rises up to this blissful realm regularly and the afterglow helps one to cope. The ideal is generally to meld into this realm or being permanently, either during life or at death of the body.

Buddhism has samadhi too, but it is used to focus on an insight and use the power of that concentration to understand more deeply. Although Buddha did not forbid or even discourage the use of samadhi on the 4 brahma states (compassion, joy, equanimity, & love) for example, to allow one to rise to a godly or deva realm during life or at death.

Maybe Vedanta or the Jains have meditations beyond samadhi, but I do not know.

I do not like calling self-harm asceticism; I think it is a positive practice that should not go beyond whatever self-abnegation is right for oneself.

(Samadhi is contemplation.) I do not see how they could, except for samyama (concentration-meditation-contemplation) or just [an]other samadhi level[s.] OTOH HPB wrote the Druze could perform miracles, so maybe the others you mentioned could if they were transcendent about samadhi, but I think it would only need samadhi. There is not really any contemplation beyond "seedless thought" i.e. "sensing no object" observation though, which is what samadhi may be. I recall Patanjali wrote about special meditation or contemplation, but it may have only been meditation because it was on objects. Not to say samadhi & samyama could not happen afterwards.

We study the Loka's on the Ascending Arc, Luminous Arc and yet those Talas on the Descending Arc, Shadowy Arc, exist also. There exist Pratyeka Buddha's and Mahmo Chohans, Monads consisting of a certain amount of materiality before they even began this Round. Lords of Light who have long since left this physical world hand down this knowledge to a few worthy men.

I find it interesting that Talas and Lokas, have also been referred to as Left-Hand Realms or Mansions and Right-Hand Realms or Mansions.

Christians like the phrase, "nobody is perfect." Theosophists describe it as relative perfection. The latter is more appropriate in that it gives me hope, whereas the former seems defeatist. In the description of relative perfection, I can see an aim or goal to strive toward: Increasing my state or condition of relative perfection.

How tightly linked are greed and spiritual progress? I would say it is to dignify myself: to know my appropriateness or worth. However, in my current state of relative perfection, I think it is possible to advance in an unbalanced manner. I find it difficult or next to impossible to never know anger, and never express it. If I was successfully impersonal at all times, people around me would be bored. Perhaps in this current life, being impersonal should be accessorized with a repertoire of poems and humor. Perhaps entertaining anecdotes

I could not get to the pdf. What are talas? They sound different than the 7 'planes' because there is nothing wrong with involution (descent from the spiritual to soulful, mental, emotional, or material world) to work out karma. In one neo-Theosophy book I read there were beings that wanted to continue involution; maybe that meant something like they wanted to in pralaya. Is that what talas are about? Pratyeka Buddhas and Mamo Chohans are opposite, right? I do not recall any of this from HPBs major books.

I have to find it, because I don't know how to put pictures that I have onto these posts. I'll remember where I got it, and paste the link. All it consists of is a chart with seven planes. At the top is Atala and Satya-Loka, Globe D': Vitala and Tapar-Loka, Globe C' and Globe E': Sutala and Janar-Loka, Globe B' and Globe F': Rasatala and Mahar-Loka, Globe A and Globe G: Talatala and Svar-Loka, Globe B and Globe F: Mahatala and Bhuvar-Loka, Globe C and Globe E: Patala and Bhur-Loka, Globe D, which is our planet.

I would not suggest that we ignore the talas. I see evil as simply imperfection at living harmoniously with life. From years of experience, and some few years of study, it appears to me that everyone on this Globe, for the most part, has within them a certain degree of evil.

I'm realizing that everything is changing, that this change can be of ascending evolution or descending evolution, and we each make our own choice. I think most of us continue upwards, but we get beat up a lot due to cosmic justice. I can get a lot of information concerning my state by observing treatment I receive from others. It is helpful doing this.

David,

You said,

"In one neo-Theosophy book I read there were beings that wanted to continue involution...."

--> I have not heard of specific beings that are involving downwards, but I have heard of "pure spirit" that is involving downwards. The idea is, there is a representative amount of spirit that is involving downwards, just as we humans are evolving upwards. I see it as as one long, continuous, uninterrupted cycle. Gazillions of years from now, the spirit that involving down past us will make the turn, and begin evolving upwards as minerals, plants, animals, humans, and beyond.

David,

I have been thinking about your post, and I have a new idea. When you talked about humans involving downward, I wonder if you were tallking about what happens between Chains. In our second Chain we were plants, and in our third Chain we were animals. Between Chains, we were in a kind of 'suspended animation.' I suppose we spent this inter-Chain rest time on the Buddhic Plane, or thereabouts.

When it came time to start our fourth Chain, we started gathering mental and astral material around us, and started creating mental and astral bodies. I suppose this acitivity could be called an involving downward.

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/fso/fso6b.htm

I finally stumbled across the link above which may give description and also a chart of the the talas and Lokas.

That is the only definition of personal involution I know of.

Thanks. I understand them more, but still do not see why talas would ever be considered mostly evil if they are just the natural descent/involution part of the cycle of globes.

I would have to agree with you. It appears to me that talas pertain to involuting ethereality and unfolding materiality. Evil is mostly about interfering with the will of others. I would imagine that there are many and varying ways of doing it.

A new revelation to me was GdeP stating that the Fourth Plane, Mahar-Loka and Rasatala are actually the densest Globes. He used analogy by reminding us that the Fourth Root-Race on Earth was most material.

Hi everybody!

Many religions regard evolutionary (upward) progress as good, and involutionary (downward) progress as bad. For humans this is true. I have to admit I am not not familiar with Talas, but I think their natural parth is to involve not evolve. Just because Talas seem to be moving in the opposite direction as us does not mean we should label them as "bad."

I did want to share something a Theosophical writer wrote. He said that we humans are trying to remove coarse "vibrations" from our astral and mental bodies, and replace them with finer, higher-level "vibrations." He also said that certain elementals existing along side us are trying to do the exact opposite — to get us humans to experience "vibrations" that are as coarse as possible. In this way, the elementals experience the same coarse "vibrations" simultaneous with the human having the experience, allowing them to make progress in their involving. Again, according to the theory, elementals need to experience "vibrations" that are as coarse as possible, while humans need to do the exact opposite.

I think it is the natural Path of these elementals to try to feel coarse "vibrations," and it is our natural Path as humans to avoid such "vibrations."

If you look at the seven planes, and count downwards until you reach the seventh, you will note that the first and the seventh have only one globe. The globe that we are currently on is still named for a tala and a Loka. Bhurloka and Patala. The highest globe on the seven planes is only one globe, named Satyaloka and Atala.

Purucker described the lokas which are ascending to be conceived as possessing both a loka and tala, and the same applies to the talas which are descending. Apparently this is because lokas pertain to spirituality and talas materiality. I suppose you have spirit and matter on the Shadowy Arc and the Luminous Arc. It is only the proportion which varies. Purucker is ascribing spirituality to lokas and materiality to talas. However, he also described the two as poles.

Our plane is to be perceived as a perfection of sorts, or at least a destination for that which is a lower planetary chain, as it is also to be perceived as a departure toward Satyaloka Atala.

I'm reminded of the Periodic Table of Elements and how they gradually change in their chemical properties, yet, at number eight, or the first of another sequence of seven, the element is very similar to the first of the prior sequence of seven. When a human life-wave living seven Root-Races on seven Globes on four planes seven times a-Round is completed, I see how a person might imagine 777 could be envisioned. Seven Root-Races, Seven Globes, Seven Rounds.

Involving spirit and unfolding matter is a striving toward perfection of substantial being.

Involving matter and unfolding spirit is a striving toward perfection of spiritual being.

Absolute Consciousness contains the cognizer, the thing cognized, and the cognition.

Absolute, Spirit, and Matter. Metaphysical Triad. The light of the logos is identified with Fohat, the bridge by which the ideas existing in the Divine Thought are impressed on Cosmic Substance as the laws of Nature. Five are upper planes of Consciousness and Being. Sixth and Seventh counting downwards, the astral and terrestrial.

"... the practice of moral and physical purity, and of certain austerities, developes the vital soul-power of self-illumination. Affording to man the control over his own immortal spirit, it gives him truly magical powers over the elementary spirits inferior to himself." H.P. Blavatsky.