Title: Stanza I, The Secret Doctrine
Description: Inconsistency?
Description: Inconsistency?
CarlosPaterson - April 22, 2007 09:57 AM (GMT)
Peace for all,
I am from Brazil and my "english writing" is not good, so forgive me the mistakes.
I am starting to read the Secret Doctrine, vol I. At first, I´ve perceived a "inconsistency" that is getting me unsecured.
According to HPB:
(...)
"THAT" (The Eternal parent, Space) is the causeless cause of both Spirit
and matter.
(...)
But, at the same time, HPB says:
(...)
The spiritual essence of matter (MATTER) is co‐eternal and even one with Space (THAT, The Eternal parent) in its abstract sense.
So, looking at these declarations I note a clear contradiction as "The Eternal Parent" can not be the CAUSE of both Spirit and Matter as HPB said.
Matter is CO-ETERNAL and even one with Space (The Eternal Parent), so it can not be a creation or an EFFECT of the Space (The Eternal Parent)!
How to understand these things? :(
(...)
TO THEIR NUMERATION, IN STANZAS
AND SLOKAS.
STANZA I.
1. ʺTHE ETERNAL PARENT (Space), WRAPPED IN HER
EVER INVISIBLE ROBES, HAD SLUMBERED ONCE AGAIN
FOR SEVEN ETERNITIES (a).ʺ
The ʺParent Spaceʺ is the eternal, ever present cause of all
— the incomprehensible DEITY, whose ʺinvisible robesʺ are
the mystic root of all matter, and of the Universe. Space is the
one eternal thing that we can most easily imagine, immovable
in its abstraction and uninfluenced by either the presence or
absence in it of an objective Universe. It is without dimension,
in every sense, and self‐existent. Spirit is the first
differentiation from THAT, the causeless cause of both Spirit
and Matter. It is, as taught in the esoteric catechism, neither
limitless void, nor conditioned fulness, but both. It was and
ever will be. (See Proem pp. 2 et seq.)
The Seven Eternities
Thus, the ʺRobesʺ stand for the noumenon of
undifferentiated Cosmic Matter. It is not matter as we know
it, but the spiritual essence of matter, and is co‐eternal and
even one with Space in its abstract sense.
(...)
I am from Brazil and my "english writing" is not good, so forgive me the mistakes.
I am starting to read the Secret Doctrine, vol I. At first, I´ve perceived a "inconsistency" that is getting me unsecured.
According to HPB:
(...)
"THAT" (The Eternal parent, Space) is the causeless cause of both Spirit
and matter.
(...)
But, at the same time, HPB says:
(...)
The spiritual essence of matter (MATTER) is co‐eternal and even one with Space (THAT, The Eternal parent) in its abstract sense.
So, looking at these declarations I note a clear contradiction as "The Eternal Parent" can not be the CAUSE of both Spirit and Matter as HPB said.
Matter is CO-ETERNAL and even one with Space (The Eternal Parent), so it can not be a creation or an EFFECT of the Space (The Eternal Parent)!
How to understand these things? :(
(...)
TO THEIR NUMERATION, IN STANZAS
AND SLOKAS.
STANZA I.
1. ʺTHE ETERNAL PARENT (Space), WRAPPED IN HER
EVER INVISIBLE ROBES, HAD SLUMBERED ONCE AGAIN
FOR SEVEN ETERNITIES (a).ʺ
The ʺParent Spaceʺ is the eternal, ever present cause of all
— the incomprehensible DEITY, whose ʺinvisible robesʺ are
the mystic root of all matter, and of the Universe. Space is the
one eternal thing that we can most easily imagine, immovable
in its abstraction and uninfluenced by either the presence or
absence in it of an objective Universe. It is without dimension,
in every sense, and self‐existent. Spirit is the first
differentiation from THAT, the causeless cause of both Spirit
and Matter. It is, as taught in the esoteric catechism, neither
limitless void, nor conditioned fulness, but both. It was and
ever will be. (See Proem pp. 2 et seq.)
The Seven Eternities
Thus, the ʺRobesʺ stand for the noumenon of
undifferentiated Cosmic Matter. It is not matter as we know
it, but the spiritual essence of matter, and is co‐eternal and
even one with Space in its abstract sense.
(...)
Nick the Pilot - April 22, 2007 02:40 PM (GMT)
Carlos,
There are three important concepts in your question. They are:
The Absolute
Spirit
Matter
These three concepts are known by several names. Here is a short list of similar names.
(1) The Absolute
-Space refers to the Absolute. It is called "Universal Space" in Stanza i-1-8 and "Dark Space" in Stanza i-3-7. (Please note that the phrase "Bright Space" in Stanza i-3-7 refers to the Universal Mind and not to the Absolute.)
- That, SD vol I p. 7
(2) Spirit
-Purusha
-Father
(3) Matter (Mulaprakritic Matter)
- Eternal Parent, Stanza i-1-1, Man, the Measure of All Things, p. 46 by Prem & Ashish
-Mulaprakriti
-Mother
~~~
You must keep track of the different names for the three concepts, and it is a difficult job.
You quoted,
"THAT" (The Eternal parent, Space) is the causeless cause of both Spirit
and matter.
--> That = Eternal Parent = Mother = Matter. In the sentence above, the word "matter" refers to atomic matter, not Mulaprakritic Matter.
The use of the word "matter" can be confusing. It is used with two different meanings in different parts of the Stanzas of Dzyan. Here are the two meanings.
* original matter
* atomic matter
Original matter (also called Pre-matter or Mulaprakriti) is the basic substance of the universe. It is the substance from which atoms are made. Mulaprakriti (original matter) is "eternal", in that it lasts even during periods of cosmic rest.
Atomic matter is Mulaprakriti that has been formed into atoms. These atoms only appear periodically (during periods of cosmic activity), and disappear (devolve back into Mulaprakriti) during periods of cosmic rest.
Please note the word Matter usually refers to Mulaprakriti (original matter) not atomic matter in The Secret Doctrine.
"Matter is eternal, becoming atomic (its aspect) only periodically." (SD vol 1 p 552)
"But, at the same time, HPB says:
The spiritual essence of matter (MATTER) is co-eternal and even one with Space (THAT, The Eternal parent) in its abstract sense."
--> The spiritual essence of matter is MATTER. Restated, The spiritual essence of atomic matter is Mulaprakritic Matter.
"So, looking at these declarations I note a clear contradiction as "The Eternal Parent" can not be the CAUSE of both Spirit and Matter as HPB said."
--> The Eternal Parent is Mulaprakritic Matter. There is one more aspect of Mulaprakritic Matter which needs to be mentioned. Mulaprakritic Matter goes through a change when the first differentiation of the new universe begins. Blavatsky refers to this change as the transformation of Mother into Father-Mother. At the beginning of a Manvantara, Father and Mother link up to form Father-Mother. Let's take a closet look at Father-Mother.
"... the gods still sleep in the bosom of 'Father-Mother'. "(SD vol I p. 109)
"... evolved from the ONE Element in its second stage (Father-Mother)...." (SD vol I p. 140)
"... into the depths of Father-Mother AEther." (SD vol I p. 564)
" 'Darkness is Father-Mother: light their son,' says an old Eastern proverb." (SD vol I p. 40)
"Thus Adam Kadmon and Adam-Adami came to mean: 'The first emanation of the Father-Mother or divine nature,' " (SD vol II p. 43)
The nature of Space changes with the beginning of a Manvantara.
"Space is called the 'Mother' before its Cosmic activity, and Father-Mother at the first stage of re-awakening. (See Comments, Stanza II.)" (SD vol I p. 18)
"In the beginning, before Mother became Father-Mother...." (SD vol I p. 74)
"The Breath of the Father-Mother issues cold and radiant and gets hot and corrupt, to cool once more, and be purified in the eternal bosom of inner Space...." (SD vol I p. 144)
Let¡¯s review.
The Eternal Parent = Mother = Mulaprakritic Matter before it became Father-Mother.
Matter = Mulaprakritic Matter after it became Father-Mother.
"as HPB said¡
Matter is CO-ETERNAL and even one with Space (The Eternal Parent), so it can not be a creation or an EFFECT of the Space (The Eternal Parent)!"
--> Matter has three different definitions (three different forms).
(1) The Eternal Parent = Mother = Mulaprakritic Matter before it became Father-Mother.
(2) Matter = Mulaprakritic Matter after it became Father-Mother.
(3) Atomic matter. Atomic matter appears when ¡°holes¡± are dug in Mulaprakriti.
"The vast sphere in space, within which the sun and its planets were to arise, contained at the beginning no substance in any way akin to matter (visible or invisible) which we have within the system today. There was only Mulaprakrti or "root-matter", that ether of space once postulated by science which is incomprehensible to our imagination, since it is only out of "holes in the aether" that matter such as we know is composed. In our Theosophical studies we have called this primordial ether or negation of matter "Koilon", the "emptiness". (Fig. 64.)
"Into this Koilon, or primordial ether of "space, the Cosmic Logos poured His energy, pressing back the Koilon from innumerable points within it. (Fig. 65.)
"Each "bubble" or point of light exists where Koilon is not; therefore each bubble is in reality a point of consciousness of the Third Aspect of the Cosmic Logos; and each bubble persists only so long as He wills to keep back the enveloping Koilon."
(First Principles of Theosophy by C. Jinarajadasa)
http://users.ez2.net/nick29/theosophy/fp-192.htm
~~~
Therefore, Blavatksy defines the word matter three different ways, and she mixes up the three definitions in her writings with gusto. If you can keep track of the three different definitions, The Secret Doctrine will start making sense.
Carlos, these are advanced studes you are undertaking, and I congratulate you for making the effort. I have written a study guide on the Stanzas of Dzyan.
http://users.ez2.net/nick29/theosophy/stanzas.htm
Rlease read my study guide and let me know if it helps.
There are three important concepts in your question. They are:
The Absolute
Spirit
Matter
These three concepts are known by several names. Here is a short list of similar names.
(1) The Absolute
-Space refers to the Absolute. It is called "Universal Space" in Stanza i-1-8 and "Dark Space" in Stanza i-3-7. (Please note that the phrase "Bright Space" in Stanza i-3-7 refers to the Universal Mind and not to the Absolute.)
- That, SD vol I p. 7
(2) Spirit
-Purusha
-Father
(3) Matter (Mulaprakritic Matter)
- Eternal Parent, Stanza i-1-1, Man, the Measure of All Things, p. 46 by Prem & Ashish
-Mulaprakriti
-Mother
~~~
You must keep track of the different names for the three concepts, and it is a difficult job.
You quoted,
"THAT" (The Eternal parent, Space) is the causeless cause of both Spirit
and matter.
--> That = Eternal Parent = Mother = Matter. In the sentence above, the word "matter" refers to atomic matter, not Mulaprakritic Matter.
The use of the word "matter" can be confusing. It is used with two different meanings in different parts of the Stanzas of Dzyan. Here are the two meanings.
* original matter
* atomic matter
Original matter (also called Pre-matter or Mulaprakriti) is the basic substance of the universe. It is the substance from which atoms are made. Mulaprakriti (original matter) is "eternal", in that it lasts even during periods of cosmic rest.
Atomic matter is Mulaprakriti that has been formed into atoms. These atoms only appear periodically (during periods of cosmic activity), and disappear (devolve back into Mulaprakriti) during periods of cosmic rest.
Please note the word Matter usually refers to Mulaprakriti (original matter) not atomic matter in The Secret Doctrine.
"Matter is eternal, becoming atomic (its aspect) only periodically." (SD vol 1 p 552)
"But, at the same time, HPB says:
The spiritual essence of matter (MATTER) is co-eternal and even one with Space (THAT, The Eternal parent) in its abstract sense."
--> The spiritual essence of matter is MATTER. Restated, The spiritual essence of atomic matter is Mulaprakritic Matter.
"So, looking at these declarations I note a clear contradiction as "The Eternal Parent" can not be the CAUSE of both Spirit and Matter as HPB said."
--> The Eternal Parent is Mulaprakritic Matter. There is one more aspect of Mulaprakritic Matter which needs to be mentioned. Mulaprakritic Matter goes through a change when the first differentiation of the new universe begins. Blavatsky refers to this change as the transformation of Mother into Father-Mother. At the beginning of a Manvantara, Father and Mother link up to form Father-Mother. Let's take a closet look at Father-Mother.
"... the gods still sleep in the bosom of 'Father-Mother'. "(SD vol I p. 109)
"... evolved from the ONE Element in its second stage (Father-Mother)...." (SD vol I p. 140)
"... into the depths of Father-Mother AEther." (SD vol I p. 564)
" 'Darkness is Father-Mother: light their son,' says an old Eastern proverb." (SD vol I p. 40)
"Thus Adam Kadmon and Adam-Adami came to mean: 'The first emanation of the Father-Mother or divine nature,' " (SD vol II p. 43)
The nature of Space changes with the beginning of a Manvantara.
"Space is called the 'Mother' before its Cosmic activity, and Father-Mother at the first stage of re-awakening. (See Comments, Stanza II.)" (SD vol I p. 18)
"In the beginning, before Mother became Father-Mother...." (SD vol I p. 74)
"The Breath of the Father-Mother issues cold and radiant and gets hot and corrupt, to cool once more, and be purified in the eternal bosom of inner Space...." (SD vol I p. 144)
Let¡¯s review.
The Eternal Parent = Mother = Mulaprakritic Matter before it became Father-Mother.
Matter = Mulaprakritic Matter after it became Father-Mother.
"as HPB said¡
Matter is CO-ETERNAL and even one with Space (The Eternal Parent), so it can not be a creation or an EFFECT of the Space (The Eternal Parent)!"
--> Matter has three different definitions (three different forms).
(1) The Eternal Parent = Mother = Mulaprakritic Matter before it became Father-Mother.
(2) Matter = Mulaprakritic Matter after it became Father-Mother.
(3) Atomic matter. Atomic matter appears when ¡°holes¡± are dug in Mulaprakriti.
"The vast sphere in space, within which the sun and its planets were to arise, contained at the beginning no substance in any way akin to matter (visible or invisible) which we have within the system today. There was only Mulaprakrti or "root-matter", that ether of space once postulated by science which is incomprehensible to our imagination, since it is only out of "holes in the aether" that matter such as we know is composed. In our Theosophical studies we have called this primordial ether or negation of matter "Koilon", the "emptiness". (Fig. 64.)
"Into this Koilon, or primordial ether of "space, the Cosmic Logos poured His energy, pressing back the Koilon from innumerable points within it. (Fig. 65.)
"Each "bubble" or point of light exists where Koilon is not; therefore each bubble is in reality a point of consciousness of the Third Aspect of the Cosmic Logos; and each bubble persists only so long as He wills to keep back the enveloping Koilon."
(First Principles of Theosophy by C. Jinarajadasa)
http://users.ez2.net/nick29/theosophy/fp-192.htm
~~~
Therefore, Blavatksy defines the word matter three different ways, and she mixes up the three definitions in her writings with gusto. If you can keep track of the three different definitions, The Secret Doctrine will start making sense.
Carlos, these are advanced studes you are undertaking, and I congratulate you for making the effort. I have written a study guide on the Stanzas of Dzyan.
http://users.ez2.net/nick29/theosophy/stanzas.htm
Rlease read my study guide and let me know if it helps.
Nicholas - April 23, 2007 12:00 AM (GMT)
Carlos,
It may take years (or lifetimes) to gain an insight into the causeless cause. Yet since the SD does not say cause alone, but adds causeless - that should give us an idea that it is not normal causation.
Think of ice, water, steam and clouds. All are H2O in differing forms. So one could think of H2O as the principle or causeless cause or source of them. Parabrahm may be a similar principle.
Also there are different types of space.
It is a very profound problem, but well worth pondering on!
It may take years (or lifetimes) to gain an insight into the causeless cause. Yet since the SD does not say cause alone, but adds causeless - that should give us an idea that it is not normal causation.
Think of ice, water, steam and clouds. All are H2O in differing forms. So one could think of H2O as the principle or causeless cause or source of them. Parabrahm may be a similar principle.
Also there are different types of space.
It is a very profound problem, but well worth pondering on!