Hi folks,

Question about the seven principles of man. Can these also be considered
evolutional stages? Or is that another set of seven? I'm not sure regarding what
terminology to use for it.

I have understood that each of the seven evolutional stages has seven sub stages, of
which each sub stage has again seven sub sub stages, etc.

How many sub sub sub stages are there?

In what stage are we currently?

I have understood that we are in Kama-Manas right now, so in other words, we're
version 4.5 ;-)

(Kama.Manas)

What minor version numbers can be added to that? Are we in 4.5.1, 4.5.2, etc.?

(Kama.Manas.Sthula-Sharira, Kama.Manas.Linga-Sharira, etc.)

Also, when in our Earth time will the next sub, sub sub, sub sub sub, etc., stage
begin?

Any information on the above would be highly appreciated.

Thanks!

Hi Filter, and welcome to the Forum.

Here are the seven Principles.

--- The Three Higher Principles ---

7th: Atma
“the Seventh — the Crown” Stanza i-5-4

6th: Buddhi, in Stanza i-5-4
“The Sixth [principle in Man] [is] Buddhi, the Divine Soul....” (SD vol I p. 119)

5th: Manas
“... Mind, the Intelligent principle....” (SD vol I p. 219)

--- The Four Lower Principles ---

4th: Passions and Animal Desires (“Kama”)
“The astral through Kama (desire) is ever drawing Manas down into the sphere of material passions and desires. ” (SD vol I p. 244)

3rd: The Life-Principle (“Prana”)
“Prana [is] LIFE, the active power producing all vital phenomena.” (SD vol II p. 593)

2nd: Astral Body (“Linga Sarira”)

1st: Physical Body (“Sthula-Sarira”)

---

Stanzas refers to The Stanzas of Dzyan. SD refers to The Secret Doctrine.

---

I would not say that they are evolutionary stages. The critical Principles are the 4th (desires) and 5th (intelligence).

Humans are different than animals in that humans have the three higher Principles, whereas animals do not. Also, when a human dies, the three higher Principles "break free" of the lower four Principles, and enter Devachan, which is the name Theosophy uses to refer to Heaven.

Here is a graphic of the seven Principles.



Note the division between the upper three Principles, and lower four Principles.

---

You said,

"I have understood that we are in Kama-Manas right now...."

--> This means that we already have a developed Kama, which is the center of desires called the astral body. (We are still learning to control our emotions, but the astral body was well-defined before our furst human incarnation.)

When each of us had our first human incarnation, we did not an an intelligence, or a mental body ("Manas"). Our main task as humans is to develop a mind. (The main task of animals is to develop emotions.)

When we move on to the next Round (after we leave Earth), our task will be to develop our Buddhic Principle, which I can only describe as cosmic consciousness in one simple phrase.

---

I am not sure what you mean by Evolutionary Stages. Are you referring to Fire, Water, etc? Could you tell me where you saw the phrase Evolutionary Stages, so I can look it up?

Hi Nick,

Thank you.

I've been told during a lecture on theosophy, when reincarnation was the subject, that
we grow through seven stages, each stage having seven sub stages.

By that I was led to believe that for instance we start at 1.1, then move to 1.2, 1.3, etc.,
and that we are currently at 4.5.

During this lecture indeed those same terms that you use were used. Sthula-Sharira,
Linga-Sharira, Prana, Kama, Manas, Buddhi and Atma.

I'm not sure if the above makes sense. I'm just curious to how transitions from one
stage (or discipline, if that is what it is called) to another are made, and to when these
transitions take place.

Apart from that, apparently the sub stages each have sub sub stages, so perhaps we
are at 4.5.1, or 4.5.3, I don't know, that is also something I'm curious about.

---

EDIT: I just saw that you use the term "round", I think that is indeed what I mean
with stage. But now I'm confused by the term principle and the way that rounds
relate to principles. Also, when will the next round start?

Filter,

You said,

"...apparently the sub stages each have sub sub stages...."

--> The only thing I can think of is that the astral body has different types of energy, which we know as emotions. Each emotion is assigned a color -- green for envy, red for anger, etc. I suppose you could group them into seven groups.

Leadbeater (a Theosophical author) said that the Mental Body also has colors, each color referring to a type of thought (which perhaps could be grouped into seven groups), although I wonder if the followers of Mr. Judge (another Theosophical author) have a different take on this.

You said,

" I'm confused by the term principle and the way that rounds relate to principles."

--> One Principle is created and developed in each Round. In the last Round, we were the animals, where we developed our emotional bodies. In this Round, we are now the humans, and we are working with a mental body for the first time.

"...when will the next round start?"

--> I guestimate in about 450 million (450,000,000) years. Our time on Earth should end in about 150 million (150,000,000) years. (I did these calculations real quickly, so I am probably off by several millions of years. But you get the idea.)

Filter, The complicated Theosophical doctrine of chains and rounds imply that there are indeed developmental stages corresponding to the seven principles. It is not a simple scheme of one, then the next, however. "Wheels within wheels". So your allusion to 4.5.1, 4.5.2 might work as a framework, but wouldn't make it any clearer to me in the broader sense.

Let's see.. fourth round, globe D, 5th root race.. working on the kama-manasic principle in this race, but the manasic principle will not be fully developed until the fifth round, millenia from now.

This is not a simple question. Where did you attend this lecture?

Jon

Nick, I've just read a bit in http://theosophy-forum.com/index.php?showtopic=277 and it covers more or less where I want to go.

Apparently, in our evolution (on a cosmic scale), we go from one world-period to another.

Am I correct when I say that those world-periods take place in a round?

In other words, there are seven rounds, and for each of those seven rounds, there are seven world-periods?

What do you mean with 49 world-periods? Shouldn't it be 49 stages, like:

Round1.World1
Round1.World2
Round1.World3
Round1.World4
Round1.World5
Round1.World6
Round1.World7

Round2.World1
Round2.World2
Round2.World3
Round2.World4
Round2.World5
Round2.World6
Round2.World7

...

Round4.World4 (this is where we are now, position 25)

...

Round7.World7 (position 49)

Does this make any sense? :)

Filter,

You are correct. We are on Planet 25 out of a total of 49 planets.

You said,

"What do you mean with 49 world-periods? Shouldn't it be 49 stages...?"

--> My term World-period, my term Planet, your term Stage, and your term Round4.World4 all refer to the same thing. It is just that I have never heard the term Stage used like that before. But the term Stage works just as well as any other. (Perhaps your lecturer uses the term Stage, and I have just not heard it before.)

---

More on Rounds

First, we must distinguish a Chain from a Round.

A chain is a group of seven planets.



A Chain always has planets on different Planes of Existence. Our earth is the only planet in our Chain that is on the Physical Plane. The other six planets are on higher Planes.



Round

A Round is the amount of time a life-wave (human, animal, etc.) spends on each of the seven planets in a Chain.



Our human life-wave started the Round on Globe A, moved to Globe B, then moved to Gobe C, and is presently on Earth (Globe D).



When our alloted time on Earth has ended, our life-wave will move onto the fifth planet of the Round (the next planet of our Chain, which is on the Astral Plane).

The total length of time of our present Round will be 617.1 million years.
(C W XIII p. 303)
http://tonh.net/theosofie/hpb_cw_online/

Manvantara

A life-wave (human, animal, etc.) spends time on each of the seven planets in a Chain, in a time-period called a Round. After finishing its time on the seventh planet of the initial Round, it then returns to the first planet, starting the process all over again, and beginning a new Round. This process repeats itself for a total of seven Rounds.



Our life-wave travels through each of the seven planets (globes) of our Chain, evolving through the elemental, mineral, plant, animal, and human levels of existence.

This process repeats itself for a total of seven Rounds, or 49 “World-Periods”. This period of 49 “World-Periods” is called a Manvantara.



Our present-day Earth is the fourth planet of the fourth Round of our Manvantara. This is exactly mid-way through the Manvantara, and mid-way through the fourth Round of that Manvantara.



This is the lowest possible level of physical manifestation in the universe.

Our present Manvantara will last 4.3 billion years (SD vol II p. 70).

---

The Seven Rounds of our Present-Day Manvantara

Our presently-human life-wave has traveled through three and a half Rounds, evolving through the first (mineral), second (vegetable), third (animal), and fourth (human) Rounds.

“... during the First, Second, and Third Rounds, ... MAN was, in turn, ‘a stone, a plant, and an animal...’ ” (SD vol I p. 185)

Let's take a look at each Round.

First Round

“...in the first Round, the globe, having been built by the primitive fire-lives, i.e., formed into a sphere — had no solidity, nor qualifications, save a cold brightness, nor form nor color....” (SD vol I p. 259)

“Man in the First Round and First Race on Globe D, our Earth, was an ethereal being (a Lunar Dhyani, as man), non-intelligent but superspiritual; and correspondingly, on the law of analogy, in the First Race of the Fourth Round. In each of the subsequent races and sub-races . . . he grows more and more into an encased or incarnate being, but still preponderatingly ethereal....” (SD vol I p. 188)

Second Round

[Man] “...has now a perfectly concrete or compacted body, at first the form of a giant-ape, and now more intelligent, or rather cunning, than spiritual. For, on the downward arc, he has now reached a point where his primordial spirituality is eclipsed and overshadowed by nascent mentality....” (SD vol I p. 188)

Third Round: We were the animals.

“... the ancestors of man ... [created] ‘ape-like’ forms ... in Round III.” (SD vol II p. 188)

“In the last half of the Third Round his gigantic stature decreases, and his body improves in texture, and he becomes a more rational being, though still more an ape than a Deva. . . . (All this is almost exactly repeated in the third Root-Race of the Fourth Round.)” (SD vol II pp. 188-189)

“It is not denied that in the [Third] Round man was a gigantic apelike creature; and when we say ‘man’ we ought perhaps to say, the rough mould that was developing for the use of man in [the fourth] Round only....” (SD vol II p. 261)

“Let us remember … the esoteric teaching which tells us of Man having had in the Third Round a GIGANTIC APE-LIKE FORM on the astral plane. And similarly at the close of the Third Race in this Round.” (SD vol II p. 688)

Fourth Round: We are the humans on Globe D (present-day Earth).

“Up to the Fourth Round... Man — if the ever-changing forms that clothed the Monads during the first three Rounds and the first two and a half races of the present one can be given that misleading name — is, so far, only an animal intellectually. It is only in the actual midway [fourth] Round that he develops in himself entirely the fourth principle [intelligence] as a fit vehicle for the fifth.” (SD vol II p. 161)

“Intellect has an enormous development in this Round. The (hitherto) dumb races acquire our (present) human speech on this globe, on which, from the Fourth Race, language is perfected and knowledge increases. At this half-way point of the Fourth Round (as of the Fourth Root, or Atlantean, race) humanity passes the axial point of the minor Manvantara cycle . . . . the world teeming with the results of intellectual activity and spiritual decrease . . . .” (SD vol II p. 189)

Fifth Round

“... Manas [intellectual ability] will be relatively fully developed only in the [Fifth] Round, when it will have an opportunity of becoming entirely divine until the end of the Rounds. As Christian Schoettgen says in Horae Hebraic, etc., the first terrestrial Adam ‘had only the breath of life,’ Nephesh, but not the living Soul.” (SD vol II p. 162)

Sixth Round

No information is given on this Round.

Seventh Round

“On [our presently] ascending arc [from materialism to spirituality], Spirit is slowly re-asserting itself at the expense of the physical, or matter, so that, at the close of the seventh Race of the Seventh Round, the Monad will find itself as free from matter and all its qualities as it was in the beginning; having gained in addition the experience and wisdom, the fruition of all its personal lives, without their evil and temptations.” (SD vol II pp. 180-181)

Nick, great stuff, thanks for that, and one quick question before I continue reading your latest reply, Earth is Globe D?

What planets are Globe A, B, C, E, F and G then?

Also, the term stage is just something I use to make things clearer for myself.

Hi Jon,

Cool, so we can put it like this:

Round4.GlobeD.Race5, which equals Round4.Globe4.Race5.

Let's see:

1. Sthula-Sharira
2. Linga-Sharira
3. Prana
4. Kama
5. Manas
6. Buddhi
7. Atma

Based on the above list, I could state that we're currently in Round[Kama].Globe[Kama].Race[Manas].

And, to prevent my keyboard from glowing up red hot and starting to smoke and hiss, I shall now use only numbers instead of rounds, globes and races and terms like Prana, Kama, Manas, etc.

So, we're currently at stage 4.4.5.

And, from stage 1.1.1 to stage 7.7.7 there are 343 stages in total.

New questions come to mind:

- How much time between moving from one round (e.g. 1.1.1) to the next round (e.g. 2.1.1)? (present round 617.1 million years)
- How much time between moving from one globe (e.g. 1.1.1) to the next globe (e.g. 1.2.1)?
- How much time between moving from one race (e.g. 1.1.1) to the next race (e.g. 1.1.2)?

Plus, are there any more stages that we can put behind the Round.Globe.Race stage? For instance, can we be in stage 4.4.5.4 now (Round.Globe.Race.Something)? If so, how much time until 4.4.5.5? And what is a possible fourth type of stage called? Any how many sub sub sub sub etc. stages are described in the various books about Theosophy anyway? For example, you have this talk going around about one human lifetime also consisting of 7 year stages, altough I'm not sure if this is of any relevance.

I'm trying to find out if any time soon we will move from one (sub) stage to another.

I mean, what is this Pisces age to Aquarius age transition talk about? Could this relate to a transition from e.g. 4.4.5.4 to 4.4.5.5?

The Pisces zodiac sign has ruler Jupiter (and co-ruler Neptune).
The Aquarius zodiac sign has ruler Saturn (and co-ruler Uranus).

What role do Jupiter and Saturn play in Theosophy? Do they have a number (1 to 7) too?

And of course the talk about 2012, you know, ascension, leaving our current body behind, entering a new life form.

Emotions serve us well, our current biological form couldn't survive without it (see instinct, closely tied to emotion), but if we would e.g. move from a current Kama (sub) stage to a next Manas (sub) stage any time soon, this would fit the 2012 theory.

A lot of questions, I know...

I'm also reading a bit more about this stage stuff in a book from Purucker now, that may also help clearing up things.

Filter,

You asked,

"What planets are Globe A, B, C, E, F and G then?"

--> These are planets that are not physical planets, but exist at higher levels. We do not have names for them, and we do not know anything about them. Blavatsky had to conserve space in The Secret Doctrine, and therefore only wrote about Earth.

“We are not concerned with the other Globes in this work except incidentally.” (SD vol I p. 160 note)

The Secret Doctrine is two volumes. If Blavatsky had written about everything she had access to, it would have filled up an entire library. That would have been too much, so she only wrote about the Earth (and a little about the beginning of our universe).

"How much time between moving from one round (e.g. 1.1.1) to the next round (e.g. 2.1.1)?"

--> The active time of a Round is followed by an equal time of rest. Our present Round's active time is 308,571,424 years. (Jinarajadasa, First Principles of Theosophy, p. 224). Our entire Round (active and rest phases) will be 617,142,856 years (Blavatsky, Collected Writings, vol 13, pp. 301-306).

"How much time between moving from one globe (e.g. 1.1.1) to the next globe (e.g. 1.2.1)?"

Our entire Earth Planet (active and rest phases) will be 44,081,632 years (Blavatsky, Collected Writings, vol 13, pp. 301-306), with half of that a rest-phase.

"How much time between moving from one race (e.g. 1.1.1) to the next race (e.g. 1.1.2)?"

--> The races overlap. I am going to have to dig into the book Collected Writings, vol 13, pp. 301-306, and find how long each one is, or you can do that while you are waiting.

"...are there any more stages that we can put behind the Round.Globe.Race stage?"

--> Yes, there are Sub-Races, although those numbers, too, escape me right now, but can be found, I believe, at (Blavatsky, Collected Writings, vol 13, pp. 301-306). For example, the Dutch, English, and French are all sub-races within the Fifth (Root) Race.

I do not know of any cycles within a Sub-Race, or seven-year cycles. (Would you like to call the Freezlanders a sub-race of the Dutch...?)

"...what is this Pisces age to Aquarius age transition talk about?"

--> Although this is not a Theosophical teaching (I cannot remember where I heard it), the Aries Age was during the Egyptian era, and one of their symbols was the ram. The soon-ending Pisces Age has Jesus being symbolized as a fish. The next Age should be symbolized by waves or water. (It has been said the most important things of our time -- electricity and the Internet -- are things of a wave nature.)

Blavatsky does not give astrology much coverage at all.

I have heard of 2012, although not through Theosophy. As to what it is, your guess is as good as mine.

"A lot of questions, I know..."

The more questions, the better. More, more!

Hey Nick. When you say ..

Are there actually different planets involved, or Earth at different levels?

Thanks

Great job on the illustrations and explanations

Filter, I have read that Venus, Mars and Mercury are also prominent in the Theosphical concepts. But, darn if I can find it all put together for better understanding.

Christian

Christian,

There are seven different planets involved. Earth is the fourth planet, Planet D. (They are not Earth at different levels.)

Wonderful. That's what I wanted to know. I'm still i ;) n sync

Christian

The question remains though, which planets are the seven planets in the lower planes?

(in fact it's about twelve planets, but only 7 planets are of importance "now")

A = ?
B = ?
C = ?
D = Earth
E = ?
F = ?
G = ?

Nick? Do you know where to find information about that?

ChristianMyst, sure, Mercury and Venus have something to do with it, possibly Mars, Jupiter and Saturn too. The question is, should we count the moon? If we count Jupiter and Saturn as well I don't think we should. Jupiter and Saturn have moons too. On the other hand, see the astrology / theosophy graphic down below, it lists 7 "planets", but the Earth is not one of them (all very confusing, I know).

Look:

Planetary Chain

A planetary chain consists of 12 globes: there are seven lower or manifested globes (globes A to G) on the four lower planes, and five upper globes on the three higher planes



Plus:



Combined astrology/theosophy thingie:



But I'm not sure if we should mix this into the discussion / question.

We see the number 10, and there are 10 kingdoms / life-waves / classes of monads:

1. Elemental 1
2. Elemental 2
3. Elemental 3
4. Mineral
5. Vegetable
6. Animal
7. Human
8. Dhyâni-chohanic 1
9. Dhyâni-chohanic 2
10. Dhyâni-chohanic 3

Anyway, it's still open, WHICH PLANETS ARE THE SEVEN PLANETS? :-)

I found this site extremely interesting:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/evo.htm

It says among others:

10. The subdivisions of a root-race and their approximate durations are as follows:[16]
Root-race 8,640,000 years (2 mahâ-yugas)
Subrace 1 1/4 mill. years
Family race 180,000 years
National race 25,920 years (one precessional cycle)
Tribal race 3600 years
Tribal generation 500 years
Individual 72 years
Starting from the 'ideal' lifetime of a human individual -- 72 years -- each successive figure is about 7 times the preceding one.

[16] SOP 35-9; FEP 294-5; SD 2:434-5. A 'national race' is sometimes called a 'family race'. 'Subrace' can refer to any of the various subdivisions of a root-race. For an explanation of HPB's statement that we are in the 'fifth subrace', see FEP 280-2, 293; SOP 35-9, 484-6. Another interpretation is that it refers to the fifth 'subrace' of 210,000 years (SD 2:435) since our fifth humanity became a distinct root-race about one million years ago.

Filter,

Blavatsky mentiones the Seven Sacred Planets several times, but she never comes out and names them. However, I believe they are:

Mercury
Venus
Earth
Earth's Moon
Mars
Jupiter
Saturn

Regarding your list of levels:

Here is my list (in opposite order from yours):

Absolute
Father, Mother
Universal Mind (Kwan-yin, Brahmâ)
Seven Dhyani-chohan
Central Sun of the Universe
Our Milky Way's Guardian-Spirit
Our Sun's Guardian-Spirit
Our Manvantara's Guardian-Spirit
Earth's Guardian-Spirit
Each Root-Race's Guardian-Spirit
Each National Group's Guardian-Spirit

Somewhat overlapping is

Silent Watcher
Lord of the World
Pratyeka Buddha, Regular Buddha
Manu, Bodhisattva, Maha-Chohan
Chohan
Adept
Arhat
Anagami
Sakadagami
Sotapanna
"Entering the Path"
Evolved Human
Un-evolved Human
Animal
Plant
Mineral
Third Elemental
Second Elemental
First Elemental
"Veil upon Veil" on the Monad
Monad
The "thrilling" of Mulaprakriti
Absolute

(Note that my list begins and ends with the Absolute, as it is a cycle.)

There is disagreement whether Blavatsky's term "Central Sun" refers to the Central Sun of the universe (my interpretation), or the Central Sun of our Milky Way Galaxy.

I have charts of all of this, but the charts are too big to reproduce here. Take a look at my charts at:

http://users.ez2.net/nick29/theosophy/lessons14.htm

These charts are based on Leadbeater's writings. I believe Judge's and Puruker's charts look a little different.

Very interesting Filter, I will be back to digest it more.

As regards the moon, Blavatsky indicates it was our seed planet. How can we exclude it?

Christian

In the Esoteric Section teachings in vol. 12 of HPB's CW she does list them and gives some correspondences. The Sun and the Moon are blinds for planets not normally visible. Our Earth is definitely not one of the Sacred planets.

Mercury
Venus
Sun
Moon
Mars
Jupiter
Saturn

Not sure what you mean by "exclude"?

Then how come Globe D = Earth?

Filter: "Then how come Globe D = Earth? "

Globe D is the physical globe we are aware of. There are 6 other invisible globes or realms of this Earth Chain of globes. Each planet, sacred or not, has this 7-fold makeup. So the Venus that we see, for example, is only one of the 7 globes or realms or dimensions that make up that complete planet.

Study this chapter in a good introduction to Theosophy: Ocean of Theosophy

Filter,

Nicholas is correct. Also, please note that Mars, Jupiter, etc., are members of different Chains, not the Earth Chain.

Nick the Pilot: "There is disagreement whether Blavatsky's term "Central Sun" refers to the Central Sun of the universe (my interpretation), or the Central Sun of our Milky Way Galaxy."

See SD 2, 240fn.:

Purucker in his Fountain Source of Occultism wrties that there is no central sun for the infinite universe.

Nicholas,

Thanks for that quote. I have to run out the door and chop down an tree (literally) so I'll have to take a close look later.

By the way, regarding the original topic of this thread, I came across something interesting. Geoffry Barborka, in his book The Divine Plan, says that Stanza i-7-1 is talking about the seven principles of the universe, not man. I found that to be vey profound, and something that I had missed completely.

Of course, the seven principles of man, being the microcosm, correspond.

I imagine that the central sun is of the galaxy, with seven galaxies in a cluster, one being central, and so on.

Jon,

Definitely. My boo-boo was I thought Stanza i-7-1 is talking about man, when it is not.